Making Multilevel Governance Work

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Maren Klein
Thank you very much for the opportunity be here today and to join in on this discussion.

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Maren Klein
I really appreciate RMIT support.

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Maren Klein
With the work.

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Maren Klein
Undertaker and gets Landover. The last five or six years.

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Maren Klein
And continuing support in.

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Maren Klein
Starting to prosecute a what we can do more broadly beyond one test place in Victoria to look at the national agenda.

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Maren Klein
So I'm hoping that the discussion will be about that today. So one, I really appreciate that. And the last thing I want to say is that you know, the partnership with RMT has been probably one of the most exciting partnerships in my career. I come from a public service background.

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Maren Klein
In education, so the education connexion is there, but it's my opportunity to part of the metro. But the authorities work, be able to be very creative and what's raised by a state government has probably been the most exciting experience to public servant I've had. And we've got a lot to learn from that. So.

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Maren Klein
Yeah.

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Maren Klein
I just also want to acknowledge a colleague of mine, Nick Decker, who's who's in this discussion today, and Nick and I are now currently working on what what we can do to influence change nationally on transition and recovery. So that is our motivation. Now that we're not, we've learned.

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Maren Klein
They took some some challenge.

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Maren Klein
So I'm just going to cover those five points today.

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Maren Klein
The understanding applies to those policy in Australia and that is that applies really important part in our multi level governance and where the context is for that.

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Maren Klein
Can I just go back to that? Yeah. Just wanted to run through that that list.

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Maren Klein
What do we actually mean by multi level governments? Because I think there are.

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Maren Klein
Interpretations depending on what you know, your experience, what the research tells us. So what does that actually mean?

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Maren Klein
And understanding the basic pillars that have been identified through researching the EU and what that means for how we can address regional strengths in Australia.

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Maren Klein
Importance of collaboration and innovation around multi level governance because the work that they're involved in, that is the key so.

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Maren Klein
1.

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Maren Klein
Collaboration, innovation and how multi little governance play a role in national and I want to give you an example of your practise in place just so that it comes to life for you from the experience to date.

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Maren Klein
Thank you.

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Maren Klein
Um.

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Maren Klein
One of the things that.

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Maren Klein
The been very aware of IS is the national scene and obviously we had the budget last night.

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Maren Klein
But just wanted to to if you haven't already read the February monthly and Judith Charmers SA.

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Maren Klein
On capitalism, after the crisis, I'd recommend reading because I think that essay certainly been.

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Maren Klein
Put out and public arena for some very important reasons and I just wanna read one quote.

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Maren Klein
He says we need to focus our attention on place based initiatives. The communities have the genuine input, local leadership resources and authority to define a new and better future.

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Maren Klein
So that you think about that one statement, place based local communities?

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Maren Klein
Luckily, they decisions and supported.

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Maren Klein
So very important in terms of of what it means to be working in place, and there are different versions of that as well.

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Maren Klein
In Vic.

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Maren Klein
Our might also included with a number another a number of other agencies on.

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Maren Klein
What it means for a place based approach here? What is the practise?

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Maren Klein
Examples and there's a if you if you go online, you could have a look at poll reported that it has had a look at some examples around Victoria what place based practise actually is the lessons learned? What do we know about how well it's working? What are the implications for that? And I think that's a very important thing for us to understand at a national level. There is now growing interest in place based work. Why I think because there's an understanding that maybe that.

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Maren Klein
Practises of regional development and not playing out the way they should and the return of investment is not as great as it should be.

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Maren Klein
And we also know from the EU experience and learning that this idea of coffee for all or everybody gets some money, keeps people happy.

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Maren Klein
And how well is that money being targeted and what are the outcomes of that?

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Maren Klein
It's been the question a number of audits around of regional development funding.

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Maren Klein
So that's very important to understand what we mean by place based approaches.

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Maren Klein
I think while the definition is fine, which means you know, this is just as I know, read the definition out of this research for you.

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Maren Klein
Since we defined a place based approach as it collaborative long term approach to build thriving communities delivered in a defined geographic location, this approach is ideally characterised my partnering and shared design shared stewardship.

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Maren Klein
And shared accountability for outcomes impacts. Now, if you think about that characterisation.

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Maren Klein
Multi level governance is critical to the success of that.

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Maren Klein
So we will come to what we mean by that and these two concepts have come together very importantly.

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Maren Klein
The examples that I can talk to today, and I won't have time to talk to all of these, but it's two very important examples that I am aware of.

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Maren Klein
Is the energy transition.

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Maren Klein
Work happening in the Latrobe Valley, it's a result of the closure of Hazelwood Otro Valley Authority, which I sympathise, started as the CEO.

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Maren Klein
Six years ago now and identifying.

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Maren Klein
That is an asset you think about skills, knowledge, assets, real physical assets, expertise, workforce.

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Maren Klein
We we would that lead to into the future or a strength for that Community.

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Maren Klein
And and so that energy transition work, let's thinking and innovation is well underway, said I've just come from another forum hearing at least one example of that. So that's that's very important.

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Maren Klein
The other work involved is through.

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Maren Klein
Forestry transition. So I was involved in two years as Director of Forestry Transition for Communities Victoria and also now working on forestry protection, very much connected to communities and what that means in communities where.

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Maren Klein
Large. Large.

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Maren Klein
Forests Albright forest exist? How does that play out?

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Maren Klein
So.

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Maren Klein
The the the examples of those, those practises and policy application is a growing appetite, I believe in our state government. Some departments that that a new way of working can be demonstrated in the outcomes can be much better and how people communities view that experience really matters. So there's some very good evidence around that.

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Maren Klein
So the role of multi level governance then?

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Maren Klein
And and as I say, I think it's. I think it's the the trick here is to understand what that looks like in practise.

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Maren Klein
Ohh and my experience in learning from Bruce and the team that arena T about the EU context.

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Maren Klein
At a very high level of multilateral governments from.

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Maren Klein
Whole states through sub states through two regions is 1 view of multi level governments in terms of you know.

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Maren Klein
Systems and.

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Maren Klein
And the way that is established and set up.

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Maren Klein
Through to what does it look like on the ground in smaller communities in, you know, right down to town level, right down to small cities and particularly for Australia, regional Australia.

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Maren Klein
What does that actually mean?

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Maren Klein
And I think I think the two of those, we need to understand both of those contexts and one of the things I think we need to do is try and understand the top down, bottom up in the section. And I'll talk a little bit later about what we mean by multi level governments in the way that we've been thinking about it.

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Maren Klein
So.

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Maren Klein
Next.

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Maren Klein
Ohh.

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Maren Klein
Just mentioned you know the the the, the understanding develop development, the understanding of multi level governance is a part of the smart specialisation approach to regional development which is where we started.

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Maren Klein
And I was just saying to Bruce earlier on, I I listened in to an EU forum last month on just transition because I was interested in what's happening in Europe associated with just transition.

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Maren Klein
The messaging I was hearing is very much aligned with I think where we are as a country.

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Maren Klein
And particularly around this idea of local activity.

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Maren Klein
So the messages were that we need to understand the multiplexes multiple system of local activity. This idea we will work on one thing at a time. So these are complex places within lots of things happen.

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Maren Klein
The complexity is actually getting harder. You start to think about environmental factors.

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Maren Klein
Economic factors, global factors, all that coming to bear on local communities and how they think about that.

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Maren Klein
The deal with that and and what are the opportunities out of that despite the challenges, this idea of visioning overtime. So how how do you create that vision into the future and deal with those challenges and the idea of decarbonising and longer term resilience.

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Maren Klein
Imports of building transforming practises and systems in community so that when a challenge arises, we're not going back to scratch. We know how to deal with that. We've got the systems in place, got the structures in place, but the leadership in place, partnerships in place to deal with that.

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Maren Klein
The third one was about public sector sector flexibility. Again, I'll come back to the role of the public sector.

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Maren Klein
That's a bit much bigger question, which I'll come to are we is the public sector fit for purpose for this? No, it's not. It's starting to see some early signs of changing Victoria, but it is a very big question though, no nationally again, back in this essay, challenges on what should it look like.

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Maren Klein
Last night, the point made for part a partnership approach and about developmental work.

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Maren Klein
Rather than upfront decisions being comfortable with interactive.

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Maren Klein
At work.

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Maren Klein
Which is what innovations about not having the answers right in front.

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Maren Klein
So.

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Maren Klein
Ohh really drew on some of the work out of the 2019 JRC technical report that will governments and looking at those.

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Maren Klein
Not those basic chords for construction.

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Maren Klein
Ohh.

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Maren Klein
As it as an application window for Australia.

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Maren Klein
Ohh.

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Maren Klein
And I think the the importance of collaboration innovation comes to the heart of this so.

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Maren Klein
When we talk about smart specialisation.

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Maren Klein
Those basic rules, which I'll talk about it in the moment associated with the entrepreneurial discovery process, so.

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Maren Klein
What does it look like? People come together.

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Maren Klein
One triple Helix sectors across society, the economy research community coming together around that, that first start start of understanding where entrepreneurial activity is underway.

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Maren Klein
How that thing looks around inquiry work into the dining areas of potential.

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Maren Klein
The research and testing the specific value propositions and the evidence base that is developed over time with people. It's part of multi level governance.

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Maren Klein
And you know.

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Maren Klein
The the the achieving action and resources in a direct result. Finally out of that multi level governance activity becomes really important to this being very practical real things happening. Demonstration to people that there is a benefit locally.

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Maren Klein
And that this approach is is leading to real benefit for community.

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Maren Klein
That's the demonstration that has to happen because just giving people information, telling it's good for them.

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Maren Klein
It's not work. People have to be invested in this personally. They have to see that it will result in change for their community in a good way.

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Maren Klein
Ohh.

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Maren Klein
Ohh.

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Maren Klein
So.

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Maren Klein
Let's have a look at those basic pillars and they really important. So I just talked about the process of smart specialisation.

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Maren Klein
The understanding of pricing complexity, so this idea of a context analysis, understanding who the players are, understanding what's already in place, understanding you know where people are at sentiment.

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Maren Klein
Plans, attitudes.

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Maren Klein
You know.

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Maren Klein
Why isn't working as well as just the the general context analysis helps you know what that complexity starts to look like. The complexity doesn't really get deep until you start to investigate in a very serious way.

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Maren Klein
Because that's when the complexity is revealing, and more, and it's important to understand that that stays with you.

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Maren Klein
You know.

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Maren Klein
Understanding you know that that the specificity of of opportunities.

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Maren Klein
And and this idea of construction of collective knowledge is really important.

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Maren Klein
So multi level governance is about respect and is about relationships and it's about learning from other people.

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Maren Klein
Into, you know, but locally know their place, but also about reaching out to other places where where knowledge is required to investigate and test something that can be.

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Maren Klein
A local university research and another part of the country.

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Maren Klein
Research, knowledge and practise in other parts of the world. It's all of those things that depending on.

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Maren Klein
We are looking for.

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Maren Klein
So that building.

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Maren Klein
Click the knowledge becomes very because multi level governance, the neighbours ownership of that collective knowledge in a way that cause I say it's a respectful.

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Maren Klein
Enquiry which which which is not about.

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Maren Klein
Not about opinions.

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Maren Klein
Not start off the bad opinion talking about selling today about what picked the answer.

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Maren Klein
And I got a good idea for you.

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Maren Klein
It starts with that, but it's not about making judgement about where people starting, it's about how do we work together to really understand what, what, what you think is a good idea or what matters to you? How do we progress that? To what point we we are together.

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Maren Klein
Really investigating and and collectively working something for mutual benefit.

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Maren Klein
So this idea of emergency developing emergent strategies is part of that then so.

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Maren Klein
This is a big shift I think.

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Maren Klein
Coming back public sector wide policy and is designed for implementation. So idea of developmental iterative normative thinking.

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Maren Klein
That builds overtime.

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Maren Klein
And really builds up a very, very strong case for a strategy that is very strong, built on evidence and commitment.

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Maren Klein
And she had decision making based on that evidence.

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Maren Klein
That is really, really crucial. Top hope that development of emergent strategies.

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Maren Klein
And then this idea of reciprocity. So the experience that we've had, experience that I've seen, experience that I've been involved in and other members of the team.

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Maren Klein
Is that?

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Maren Klein
The excitement about really getting people committed to.

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Maren Klein
When you get to the point you've done a bit of work on.

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Maren Klein
Understanding to change behaviour.

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Maren Klein
And system change the point where people say I'm on board.

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Maren Klein
Uncommitted to this I will take the role. I will commit resources and together we can get this done.

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Maren Klein
And I actually do that and you get a number of things involved in this is when you know that you really have this idea of reciprocity.

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Maren Klein
Ohh.

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Maren Klein
And I think the big the big opportunity here is to show that government.

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Maren Klein
If you do it properly, you do it locally. I was a government agent this locally. This is my community, my commitment.

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Maren Klein
Retain the people who are local.

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Maren Klein
We are here. Yes, we are government. We're here to make sure this community, our community, it's the most out of this opportunity for the government perspective and we can help do that because we've got Connexions in the government and departments and people.

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Maren Klein
So that becomes a very strong.

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Maren Klein
Ohh.

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Maren Klein
Putting that democracy building on the way about people being involved in decision making, their democratic level as well as on Community level influencing governor.

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Maren Klein
OK, the next one.

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Maren Klein
So.

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Maren Klein
The the adoption of smart specialisation and approach to regional development, I think it's really important.

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Maren Klein
As a something in the public sector for a long time, and I've seen many, many policies developed by senior public servants with good intention, government's good intention.

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Maren Klein
Ohh, and programmes developed that they are always done to communities.

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Maren Klein
And we we, we the kid ourselves by saying we will go out and confront.

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Maren Klein
Ohh, here's what we're intending to do. What do you think?

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Maren Klein
Does it change much? Not not normally.

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Maren Klein
But we've done our job.

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Maren Klein
And that's the little participation normally that happens.

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Maren Klein
Or it's, you know, organisations putting together case studies, not case studies, business cases, through consultants and going to government saying.

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Maren Klein
This we need money for this.

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Maren Klein
Ohh, and that's not necessarily done in a collaborative way, so it's a competition that exists across our community for dollars. It doesn't.

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Maren Klein
Contribute to innovation because everyone's out to get money.

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Maren Klein
And it's all about their community, their, their, their level of interest and their head project quite often.

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Maren Klein
So.

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Maren Klein
What really matters, though, is what matters to people. It doesn't mean we don't. We don't pay attention to that.

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Maren Klein
But that's the starting point. Where are the opportunities? Where is the work happening? What can we learn about?

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Maren Klein
With the potential is, what can we what can we test? What? Who can we bring together that has an interest in this as the starting point for that collaboration partnership and that grows up the time?

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Maren Klein
We can give you examples. We've just been listening this morning to.

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Maren Klein
Potentially being in Deutschland 60, people involved at this point of time on opportunities who are committed to being involved, from all walks of life.

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Maren Klein
Policymakers to researchers, to businesses, to local government who have come together around.

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Maren Klein
Testing.

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Maren Klein
We now start to see that out more and more and more, so the momentum is growing this way of working.

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Maren Klein
Attention, that's the demonstration.

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Maren Klein
And it is about it is about, you know, advancing regional strengths.

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Maren Klein
One of the things that that we do as an authority was really start to think about.

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Maren Klein
The smart Switch analyzation coach and what is the leading from that practise around how you would venture regiment strengths? So there are a couple of key key key.

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Maren Klein
Some.

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Maren Klein
Conditions for that and one was around neighbouring collaborative networks with shared intent. Every multi level governance and leadership, a whole lot of information which I've got time today go about defining that. What does that actually mean? So for example you know collaborative network that recognises the role of each partner, their contribution and shared responsibility to active and very work one tenant.

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Maren Klein
Ohh.

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Maren Klein
The cleverest network that builds collective learning and negotiations for decision making, authority and influence are shared between stakeholders building trust and purple telligence. I could go on.

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Maren Klein
So defining what you actually mean by this actually helps you develop the practise.

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Maren Klein
And developing their new connexion.

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Maren Klein
Assist how those those defined practises.

0:23:6.450 --> 0:23:28.530
Maren Klein
Are going so having a an assessment framework around that to tell you how well that's going on, not going. She helps you think about how you adapt to what you have to do with things are not going away. Expect them. You have to go back to the drawing board, which which level of definition that we are not getting going well here and that's really important because.

0:23:29.990 --> 0:23:35.10
Maren Klein
You know you can't just railroads, people, people gotta be ready and sometimes little readiness takes time.

0:23:35.690 --> 0:23:36.910
Maren Klein
And you have to slow down.

0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:40.660
Maren Klein
Ohh, the second really important.

0:23:40.740 --> 0:23:41.110
Maren Klein
Come.

0:23:43.490 --> 0:23:52.600
Maren Klein
Thinking around this was how we understand the leverage of regions competitive advantage, so that social, economic, environmental through the innovation collaboration.

0:23:53.470 --> 0:23:59.530
Maren Klein
So those two things though, is collaborative networks and multiple governments and innovation collaboration for.

0:24:1.970 --> 0:24:10.20
Maren Klein
Harnessing the regional space of the tenants we think of of what regional development from our experience looks like.

0:24:12.300 --> 0:24:12.690
Maren Klein
OK.

0:24:16.140 --> 0:24:20.510
Maren Klein
So let's just go last minute time that I've got to book about practising place.

0:24:23.190 --> 0:24:25.20
Maren Klein
What we have learned is that.

0:24:26.140 --> 0:24:28.570
Maren Klein
Just takes very skilled.

0:24:29.380 --> 0:24:33.530
Maren Klein
Course, dedicated time to work with people in place.

0:24:34.530 --> 0:24:38.20
Maren Klein
Ohh, and we were fortunate as an organisation, as a bit of an.

0:24:39.180 --> 0:24:39.510
Maren Klein
You know.

0:24:41.320 --> 0:25:1.90
Maren Klein
Ability for the stadium to test an idea, to just to test the design. This came straight out of the department memory and cabinet. That's where this work was designed so very hard level of authorisation from the premier downs were very fortunate resources to be able to do what we wanted to do and said just go and do what you need to do differently.

0:25:1.850 --> 0:25:3.400
Maren Klein
That's fantastic opportunity.

0:25:4.280 --> 0:25:4.850
Maren Klein
That.

0:25:5.550 --> 0:25:14.60
Maren Klein
We have to learn very quickly about how to skill ourselves, how to school, attainment people, and again, our partnership with RT.

0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:21.220
Maren Klein
And the research done and U helped us do that once other research around what was happening around the world.

0:25:22.10 --> 0:25:29.430
Maren Klein
We looked at the work of nester capability of public sector to do this sort of work. What skill it takes.

0:25:31.170 --> 0:25:41.290
Maren Klein
And then there's a whole lot of training and working together on on developing the tools to do this. So establishing a set of tools the the team could use.

0:25:42.320 --> 0:26:2.320
Maren Klein
An assessment tool to make sure that we will we were monitoring how we will working again of course having a design around that teams around that and making sure that we were monitoring the outcomes. So the whole lot of work which I've got time to talk about today that sets the scene for that.

0:26:4.90 --> 0:26:4.590
Maren Klein
Um.

0:26:6.810 --> 0:26:13.470
Maren Klein
Now the real native multi level governments are just this is my second highest point today is that.

0:26:14.430 --> 0:26:15.410
Maren Klein
It is imperative.

0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:24.790
Maren Klein
So it's not one thing or another, but it at in in essence it is about bottom up, top down.

0:26:25.520 --> 0:26:27.920
Maren Klein
That it is horizontal as well.

0:26:28.580 --> 0:26:35.270
Maren Klein
And it's in and it runs in different times in stages and levels so.

0:26:35.970 --> 0:26:39.920
Maren Klein
What it is not setting up the port of 10 people to make decisions?

0:26:41.620 --> 0:26:43.980
Maren Klein
It's very best. It's about.

0:26:45.260 --> 0:26:55.40
Maren Klein
Different groups that come together at different times, different interests, and you, you, you aggregate that and and people come in and out, it's not set.

0:26:55.950 --> 0:26:57.290
Maren Klein
But it is very targeted.

0:26:58.380 --> 0:26:59.580
Maren Klein
I mean it's inclusive.

0:27:0.380 --> 0:27:1.870
Maren Klein
So finding people.

0:27:2.950 --> 0:27:4.960
Maren Klein
To have the knowledge and an interest.

0:27:5.800 --> 0:27:21.100
Maren Klein
Is a really good way to go. Wanted discover what you undercover, what you under. What you can't. Sorry, what you discover is all these people have community doing fantastic things that nobody knows about and have not been together at talking to people.

0:27:23.60 --> 0:27:28.510
Maren Klein
It challenges the status quo of leadership, and that's enough. That's a tough space.

0:27:29.250 --> 0:27:38.20
Maren Klein
Because communities normally have their one 2-3 or four people who believe they are the leaders and we have some very.

0:27:39.710 --> 0:27:47.320
Maren Klein
Well managed decision making practises that keep that decision making that leadership nicely where it should be thinking very much.

0:27:48.940 --> 0:27:52.70
Maren Klein
From formal organisations.

0:27:53.230 --> 0:27:55.600
Maren Klein
You know, to nonformal as well.

0:27:56.900 --> 0:27:59.210
Maren Klein
So this idea of breaking that apart.

0:27:59.940 --> 0:28:5.270
Maren Klein
And having people involved who might not normally be involved in a very.

0:28:6.410 --> 0:28:7.760
Maren Klein
Collaborative approach.

0:28:9.480 --> 0:28:9.950
Maren Klein
Uh.

0:28:10.950 --> 0:28:15.160
Maren Klein
Is challenging, but the state government departments for local government.

0:28:15.920 --> 0:28:23.90
Maren Klein
Rather, organisations that have been established, you have, you know, set agendas and you've gotta work within that context.

0:28:23.990 --> 0:28:37.880
Maren Klein
What we want was it's not about competition and it's not about competing with those organisations. It's demonstrating practical things at the end of the day, which changes the way people think, so it's still inclusive.

0:28:38.560 --> 0:28:39.250
Maren Klein
But it's not.

0:28:40.350 --> 0:28:56.370
Maren Klein
We've had trouble with why? Why are you going to work with other universities when you should be working with our local university only will. That's you don't have all the knowledge that's needed. And I'm sorry about that. But that's just the way it goes. You have expertise in some fields, but not in all.

0:28:57.320 --> 0:28:58.150
Maren Klein
That's very difficult.

0:28:59.220 --> 0:29:0.150
Maren Klein
That we stuck with that.

0:29:3.530 --> 0:29:4.160
Maren Klein
So.

0:29:5.490 --> 0:29:8.620
Maren Klein
If the one example I'll give you very quickly, I don't have much time. I've got.

0:29:11.630 --> 0:29:14.680
Maren Klein
Alright, sorry very, very, very quick example.

0:29:16.510 --> 0:29:26.130
Maren Klein
Part of the energy transition work identifying places where where energy transition could occur. Small town in Gippsland called Darren.

0:29:27.300 --> 0:29:43.20
Maren Klein
I don't know what you know of its small rural town agriculture, forestry, transition, energy transition, all happening at the same time. So local milk really elevated cocoa milk thinking differently about use September.

0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:49.620
Maren Klein
Stations and energy community energy parks idea which came up.

0:29:51.250 --> 0:29:54.190
Maren Klein
Building that inquiry around that is an opportunity.

0:29:54.840 --> 0:30:0.730
Maren Klein
Researchers internationally, locally businesses in solar and battery.

0:30:2.990 --> 0:30:7.680
Maren Klein
That tree and then paralysis in terms of use of waste materials out of the mill.

0:30:8.470 --> 0:30:15.550
Maren Klein
Ohh 22 H 18 months to two years of really serious research work about what this could look like.

0:30:17.640 --> 0:30:39.720
Maren Klein
Go to a business case. State government was ready to give in a relation to forestry businesses who are doing innovative work or because all of that work have happened and the and they had been given a possible should have mentioned the authority provided a couple $100,000 to do that research work. So you've gotta provide incentive and support building that coalition was the work of our team and.

0:30:40.960 --> 0:30:41.760
Maren Klein
State government.

0:30:42.450 --> 0:30:48.80
Maren Klein
He he. Here you go. State government. We've already done this work. I will put in $2,000,000 to get that up.

0:30:49.340 --> 0:30:55.100
Maren Klein
And that's happening now. Local government's got involved. It's continuing in forestry Workers Party.

0:30:55.880 --> 0:30:57.190
Maren Klein
Ohh what a community strategy.

0:30:58.70 --> 0:31:7.160
Maren Klein
And I've not done that sort of service in terms of complexity and the time and the effort and the skill taken to get to that point, as I said to Bruce earlier.

0:31:7.980 --> 0:31:12.790
Maren Klein
We got back to the park this and said $2 million project.

0:31:13.210 --> 0:31:23.440
Maren Klein
Ohh comments were this is the first time we've ever worked with government in a way that we've had to say what's happening and and in a partnership in the way the government doesn't really work.

0:31:24.320 --> 0:31:34.80
Maren Klein
So they're the sorts of comments back from community about the relationship with government and the shift. So I might stop there. Great, great example.

0:31:35.140 --> 0:31:40.70
Maren Klein
That's a really structured framework with this.

0:31:40.230 --> 0:31:49.490
Maren Klein
I kiss you when you said thank you very much today, Brian. Dr Brown's every two cities, one community or we were wrong. As I say, right, great.

0:31:51.110 --> 0:31:52.300
Maren Klein
Thanks very much, Bruce.

0:31:54.570 --> 0:31:55.220
Maren Klein
I.

0:31:56.880 --> 0:32:6.740
Maren Klein
I would be commenting on things which cross the paths that Karen's crossed. Sometimes will be travelling down the path a little bit on some occasions.

0:32:8.0 --> 0:32:21.490
Maren Klein
The two cities, one community I'll touch base on that I won't spend very much time on the tour actually, but what I want to talk about relates to regional, the regional development.

0:32:22.510 --> 0:32:32.520
Maren Klein
But what I've learned in governance in regional development is so readily transferable to the broader sense of governments that that's worthwhile picking up.

0:32:33.220 --> 0:33:4.110
Maren Klein
Want to talk? Start by first of all talking about some issues and then looking at some examples and the Albury Wodonga threw itself. I talk about the regional environment by that I'm talking about the the physical, the social, the intellectual environment in which the people in the region carry out their day to day lives. And when we trying to manage to bring that to its ultimate, there's four issues that I think are important.

0:33:4.180 --> 0:33:5.500
Maren Klein
First ball is leadership.

0:33:6.490 --> 0:33:10.120
Maren Klein
There's two issues in relation to leadership that I'd like to comment on.

0:33:10.710 --> 0:33:11.80
Maren Klein
Uh.

0:33:12.850 --> 0:33:31.620
Maren Klein
Often the state leadership or administration or management or something like that. Now there are you'll find this iPad came across this one. I realised that that there's a disjoint between the position of leader and the traits of a leader. Quite often they don't come together.

0:33:32.980 --> 0:33:51.570
Maren Klein
The second point that I'd make is that there's two types of leading. You can have a transformational leader or a transactional leader. If all's going well, things are it pretty much in the optimum you wish to maintain a stability, then a transactional leader is fine. We're not talking about that here.

0:33:52.300 --> 0:33:58.110
Maren Klein
We're talking about change and change will require a transformational leader.

0:33:59.530 --> 0:34:8.540
Maren Klein
Secondly, I want talk about strategic intent now within the strategic environment. There's five issues that I'd seen this strategic thinking.

0:34:9.560 --> 0:34:31.110
Maren Klein
Strategic intent, strategic foresight, strategic management, strategic planning and strategic management. You'll find that strategic thinking and intent are the prerequisites for having a, A, a coherent forward view.

0:34:31.810 --> 0:34:47.630
Maren Klein
With an ability to be able to transfer that into actions at an operational level, what I'm talking about there is strategic foresight, so strategic thinking and intent lead into that. I don't believe that you can have.

0:34:49.90 --> 0:35:3.220
Maren Klein
Real strategic planning without strategic foresight and the management flows on from there. So they are important issues that we need to address. Understanding the system is another point that I'd like to make now.

0:35:3.960 --> 0:35:15.910
Maren Klein
We have to realise that we're talking about system here. I've been talking about the regional innovation system in some of the work that I've been doing, but we need to understand the system and that.

0:35:16.940 --> 0:35:18.880
Maren Klein
If you don't know the system.

0:35:19.590 --> 0:35:22.890
Maren Klein
If you're not in the system, you won't necessarily understand it.

0:35:23.650 --> 0:35:26.380
Maren Klein
And in my case, regional.

0:35:26.460 --> 0:35:56.530
Maren Klein
The economic system, or look at the core elements that the operating environment, the strategic framework which relates to policy formulation and development of strategy from that and the practises which put into place those strategies and finally the the practises as I say, and there's also the agents which carry out that work. Now the agents are the community, there's industry and commerce.

0:35:56.840 --> 0:36:2.180
Maren Klein
The various institutions, social, educational and finally.

0:36:2.940 --> 0:36:15.70
Maren Klein
The The Government, the these, these are the agents in regional economic development and they work within the system. They operate within the system, regulated by certain capacities such as.

0:36:17.370 --> 0:36:20.760
Maren Klein
Information, knowledge creation and sharing.

0:36:20.830 --> 0:36:21.70
Maren Klein
Here.

0:36:23.510 --> 0:36:25.640
Maren Klein
Issues such as the.

0:36:28.150 --> 0:36:37.220
Maren Klein
The authority and resources to carry out their work, and there are certain moderators, such as strategic foresight, as I mentioned by ability.

0:36:39.20 --> 0:36:47.100
Maren Klein
Issues like that. So they make up the the the system we have to recognise what we're talking about is the system.

0:36:47.830 --> 0:36:53.310
Maren Klein
Multi level government governance is a system operates as a system.

0:36:54.0 --> 0:36:55.760
Maren Klein
Finally, the collaboration.

0:36:56.770 --> 0:37:10.670
Maren Klein
The collaboration is more than just cooperation. Collaboration is where you have leaders. You have the the transformational leaders, you have strategic thinking in place, people who understand the system.

0:37:11.730 --> 0:37:13.250
Maren Klein
People who trust each other.

0:37:13.930 --> 0:37:22.930
Maren Klein
That is so important. As part of this process. So now I think they are the factors that I see of being underpinning the, the the environment.

0:37:24.260 --> 0:37:24.800
Maren Klein
Yeah.

0:37:25.960 --> 0:37:27.420
Maren Klein
They operate.

0:37:28.120 --> 0:37:38.540
Maren Klein
On the levels they operate between the levels, well, I've been talking about is the regional level and I sometimes would refer to that as the shareowner level.

0:37:39.410 --> 0:37:42.160
Maren Klein
Because it gets kicked around so much while the players.

0:37:43.690 --> 0:37:47.960
Maren Klein
I want to come back to this particular issue of the regional level.

0:37:49.230 --> 0:37:58.0
Maren Klein
No, it's turning out thoughts now to the Albury Wodonga experience. I wanna touch on some issues in relationships between the levels.

0:37:59.580 --> 0:38:15.820
Maren Klein
2 examples of Commonwealth involvement and one example of state involvement. First one goes back to the middle of 1970s. That was the the formulation of the Albury Wodonga National Growth Centre.

0:38:16.960 --> 0:38:37.130
Maren Klein
Programme and the port of the formation of the Albury Wodonga Development Corporation. Now that was the result of an enormous amount of negotiation between state and Commonwealth. Governments have been a lot of work done by the states looking at centralisation and how they can combat the issues of centralisation with decentralisation.

0:38:37.940 --> 0:38:46.90
Maren Klein
The the Commonwealth under when? When Whitlam came in started to address this issue too. A lot of work done.

0:38:47.220 --> 0:39:3.510
Maren Klein
And the the Councils were involved in a bit of that work too. A bit of that work, the legislation which instituted the programme, instituted the Albury would on the Development Corporation. That legislation was the role of the States and the Commonwealth.

0:39:4.490 --> 0:39:27.940
Maren Klein
The Council didn't even get involved the the the ovary of Donga Development Corporation was not answerable to the Councils. In fact, the Council's lost their planning powers in the in the designated area, and so the ovary of done the Development Corporation was responsible to A to a minister or the Ministerial Council.

0:39:28.710 --> 0:39:36.140
Maren Klein
Now this was a a real the Council, I must say. The councils were represented on the board of the Corporate.

0:39:36.990 --> 0:39:44.870
Maren Klein
But that's that's not necessarily good enough, but what this was was top down imposition of a what could have been a great idea.

0:39:46.270 --> 0:39:54.490
Maren Klein
The second example that I'd like to look at is relates to the building. The Better Cities programme, which was the.

0:39:55.840 --> 0:40:5.90
Maren Klein
The child of Brian Howe was the Deputy Prime Minister and the the Minister for Regional Development.

0:40:6.0 --> 0:40:18.180
Maren Klein
Yeah, that was instituted in 1991 and it run through to 1995 when they wanted to take it through to the second, the second level second process.

0:40:19.0 --> 0:40:29.920
Maren Klein
To finance that, Brian, how decided that he would close the ordinary, went on the Development Corporation and sell off the land bank over a five year period from 1995 to 2000.

0:40:31.710 --> 0:40:48.160
Maren Klein
The land bank at that stage was about 15,000 hectares, more than 15,000 hectares selling it off over five years would have been a massive bias sale and it would have had profound implications for the the region.

0:40:49.960 --> 0:41:4.420
Maren Klein
It was great consternation locally, but the Council's were opposed to it. Business was opposed to it, particularly the the the Gland development area that was opposed to it. The community was opposed to it.

0:41:5.410 --> 0:41:6.870
Maren Klein
And the press were opposed to.

0:41:7.670 --> 0:41:9.660
Maren Klein
Yeah, fortunately.

0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:13.250
Maren Klein
Fortunately, unfortunately you there was a charge.

0:41:14.970 --> 0:41:23.330
Maren Klein
Lay the lost John Howard came into power, and so there was a new set of thinking imposed.

0:41:24.270 --> 0:41:41.340
Maren Klein
They didn't times the overall idea though. They just changed the dates, they just spread it out a little bit longer, but this was a situation in which there was a top down idea imposed on the community and the Community again did not like it.

0:41:42.80 --> 0:42:3.350
Maren Klein
So this is one of the things we have to with with respect to changing the date. So let's just tell you that when I was took over as the CEOI met with the the minister at the Time Syndrome McDonald, he said, look, I've got two dates here, I've got 2005 and I've got 2009.

0:42:4.410 --> 0:42:9.840
Maren Klein
Been a pretty packed the Titian he took the average and said that we'll post them 2007.

0:42:12.290 --> 0:42:23.700
Maren Klein
I'll come by cover camp if we got time, we'll come back to that. But that was an issue. Ohh. Now wanna move on to how the states have been involved there an example of the state.

0:42:24.780 --> 0:42:26.810
Maren Klein
Imposition, sorry about that.

0:42:30.950 --> 0:42:34.930
Maren Klein
I thought it's Richard Anderson. They they.

0:42:38.440 --> 0:42:39.190
Maren Klein
The state.

0:42:39.870 --> 0:42:49.480
Maren Klein
The the the two states came together to have a joint ministerial meeting in Albury Wodonga and.

0:42:50.340 --> 0:42:51.480
Maren Klein
After that meeting.

0:42:52.360 --> 0:43:11.30
Maren Klein
They were to the next day to meet with the community and and address the community. Now I don't know what Steve Braxton and Bob Carr had been drinking and smoking the night before, but they announced that they were going to investigate the establishment of a a single municipal cross border municipality.

0:43:12.560 --> 0:43:23.910
Maren Klein
Well, let me just was a Lib balloon it it was quietly opposed by Albury council and vociferously opposed by the Wodonga Council.

0:43:25.70 --> 0:43:51.300
Maren Klein
I'd say that in some respect, that was the worst of these three examples, because it created a rift between the two councils, which went on and sometimes quite acrimoniously for a number of years. And this three examples that I'm shy of, the imposition of top down approaches without that level of communication and that level of involvement which is required.

0:43:52.600 --> 0:44:9.700
Maren Klein
In, in a successful implementation and what we what I now want to look at is a couple of examples of that in the local area. And first of all, let's the the health situation, the health system in Albury Wodonga is quite interesting because.

0:44:10.530 --> 0:44:40.720
Maren Klein
This is a situation where to bring the the two NSW and Victoria and systems together would have made tremendous advances in terms of the use of resources, the reduce of the reduce of the use of resources and finance. This was a local initiative from the the medical profession in Albury Wodonga locally driven. Obviously the states had to become involved in that.

0:44:41.0 --> 0:44:55.360
Maren Klein
But the around about 2010 there abouts they were rather to bring together all we were done to health which is a cross border organisation under the auspices of the Victorian Department of Health.

0:44:56.150 --> 0:45:9.120
Maren Klein
Great success. Worked well at a local initiative, locally driven and it works. The other one is now a touch on the the two cities, one community.

0:45:10.540 --> 0:45:17.310
Maren Klein
This came into being around about 2017. Now that excuse them that I've talked about between the two.

0:45:19.60 --> 0:45:25.780
Maren Klein
The two cities lasted long time and there was a lot of acrimony involved in that.

0:45:26.960 --> 0:45:40.80
Maren Klein
And I must say more so on the part of of Victoria, who I think saw themselves as the the lesser partner in this particular group. And so that.

0:45:41.60 --> 0:46:10.690
Maren Klein
That was there for a long, long time as the as they say of the corporation had to deal with these people and it wasn't always an easy process to do to do so. But I saw this happening and but the people who are involved, they go in time, they go new people come in, new approaches taken and there was really good leadership shown bottom both sides bringing them to the Council's together, working through a process whereby you had.

0:46:11.30 --> 0:46:17.470
Maren Klein
The two councils meet together and decide on the process of the two cities one community.

0:46:17.550 --> 0:46:19.680
Maren Klein
The structure.

0:46:20.400 --> 0:46:44.890
Maren Klein
They they I think it was in Weldon the they met and then the two were having no agreed that as in a combined meeting they then went to the own meetings and adopted the policy. And this was driven by the locals accepted by the locals and worked with the locals. So they're the point. You wanna make a may were again the the examples of.

0:46:46.120 --> 0:46:54.850
Maren Klein
In local initiatives, being able to work with the top down imposition didn't work so.

0:46:56.380 --> 0:46:59.540
Maren Klein
What? What are the the lessons that we can learn from that?

0:47:1.890 --> 0:47:3.180
Maren Klein
Ohh say that.

0:47:5.800 --> 0:47:7.310
Maren Klein
At the regional level.

0:47:8.30 --> 0:47:14.970
Maren Klein
The regional level of governance. The problem here is that the region not divine, not devine.

0:47:16.360 --> 0:47:17.330
Maren Klein
We have.

0:47:18.280 --> 0:47:20.930
Maren Klein
Federal, state and local government now.

0:47:22.110 --> 0:47:39.420
Maren Klein
We the problem is that at a regional level, the states are too big, local governments too small. We have 8 states, something like where 650 local governments and that's just doesn't work in the UK by have. I think it's something like about 48.

0:47:41.760 --> 0:47:46.890
Maren Klein
Counties across that little little country of England.

0:47:48.260 --> 0:48:7.390
Maren Klein
In the the in the United States, 48 states in the contiguous area, which is roughly equivalent to in Australian area Canada that has 13 various provinces and states, Australia 8 states.

0:48:8.470 --> 0:48:16.80
Maren Klein
650 local government areas does not work. The imbalance is is just not no good.

0:48:16.760 --> 0:48:18.750
Maren Klein
Can we address that? Can we change that?

0:48:19.720 --> 0:48:23.440
Maren Klein
We can bring in further local government reform, but that.

0:48:24.130 --> 0:48:25.460
Maren Klein
Tinkering at the edges.

0:48:27.10 --> 0:48:29.70
Maren Klein
Can we change the site bandage?

0:48:29.790 --> 0:48:45.670
Maren Klein
Not in the foreseeable future. So that's the situation there. So what we we come to is looking at what local government may be able to do itself and what it has done in what's successfully in areas of NSW and Queensland is form.

0:48:47.780 --> 0:49:9.270
Maren Klein
Regional organisations have council. This is where you have the the Councils of of similar like like a demands like 3 requirements like resources that can come together and create a larger entity, the regional entity that we're talking about and be able to take the action.

0:49:10.650 --> 0:49:20.0
Maren Klein
With the Adam, with the top down issues. Well, not quite so bad today. The reason for that is if you look at the federal government.

0:49:20.810 --> 0:49:21.800
Maren Klein
It's neglect.

0:49:22.570 --> 0:49:41.100
Maren Klein
And I go back when, when? When. Howard government first came in our minister at the time was John Chard. He is on record as the Minister for Regional Development. As saying he didn't understand what role federal government had to do in regional development.

0:49:41.830 --> 0:50:12.80
Maren Klein
That was an issue there, so neglect is one of the issues and the other one is the economic rationalist legacy that we have. And I think it's as bad as it has been. But the legacy is still there and that's a legacy of pushdown of responsibilities. Pushing it down to the lower levels. But that doesn't always happen with the required responsibility. They get the responsibilities but with the required authority or the resources to deal with that.

0:50:12.160 --> 0:50:19.430
Maren Klein
So they have the issues we have to deal with and these are major issues when we're looking at multi level governments.

0:50:22.60 --> 0:50:37.70
Maren Klein
That's essentially what we're talking about here. I'm talking about look at you. You know, the going back to what we said in the beginning, leadership, the need for a local transformative leaders to come together, they will come out of either.

0:50:38.650 --> 0:50:51.530
Maren Klein
Business or the institutions or the Councils themselves? That's where the leadership will arise. They will show the necessary strategic foresight to have taken that action.

0:50:52.830 --> 0:50:59.410
Maren Klein
They will have been involved in the locality, they will been involved in the region, they will understand the system.

0:51:3.100 --> 0:51:11.970
Maren Klein
That's the important thing that we need to understand. That's going to be the essential part of the collaboration. Our what haven't I addressed here?

0:51:12.780 --> 0:51:14.470
Maren Klein
I haven't addressed the border issue.

0:51:15.550 --> 0:51:42.820
Maren Klein
Turn Cortana very important, but there's not a great deal actually done in addressing sub national borders as that that I can see that all gone through in my research has very little that's done in that, but that's important. Let me give you a good example of this during Jeff Kenneth's time, he decided that he would extend the daylight saving period by two weeks.

0:51:43.590 --> 0:51:59.440
Maren Klein
During that two weeks, my wife took one hour and 10 minutes to get from to do her 10 minute drive from Albury across to Wadonga where she worked. However, she got home 50 minutes before she left work in the evening. Yes.

0:52:0.500 --> 0:52:8.950
Maren Klein
I had to have in my diary. I had to have the the two, the two time frames down so that I wouldn't muck up the the the meeting.

0:52:10.30 --> 0:52:21.860
Maren Klein
But you know this is a cross border cross border issues all over. They they had their cross border anomalies committee operated and I don't believe they did much more than sort out the fishing licences on on.

0:52:22.330 --> 0:52:32.940
Maren Klein
I like you, but these days we now have a different approach and you look at the NSW has a cross border.

0:52:34.640 --> 0:52:49.360
Maren Klein
Functional economic zone, which includes the a range of. I think there's 33 NSW municipalities and there are, I think it's two Victorian spell that was involved in that.

0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:56.800
Maren Klein
The flexibility of boundaries is also what we need to understand here, the.

0:52:57.760 --> 0:53:3.770
Maren Klein
Delete the designated area under the original Growth Centre programme.

0:53:5.400 --> 0:53:9.460
Maren Klein
Included I I think it was 5 or 6 municipalities the the.

0:53:9.540 --> 0:53:12.550
Maren Klein
Yeah, that local the the.

0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:20.560
Maren Klein
Functional Economic area includes something like about 5 municipalities, different municipalities, you got the.

0:53:24.200 --> 0:53:42.590
Maren Klein
The the Ohh you know? But they they hue and the Murray Rd I who each address something like 10 to 13 municipalities so that boundaries are flexible. We need to be able to get those all focused, get them tidied up so.

0:53:44.40 --> 0:53:46.260
Maren Klein
The tail leave it. I think it's OK.

0:53:47.970 --> 0:53:48.940
Maren Klein
Two break.

0:53:49.670 --> 0:53:57.800
Maren Klein
Thank you so much. I'll write you something. You have service through that, that that's perhaps start with questions that degree is please.

0:53:58.730 --> 0:54:4.470
Maren Klein
Christians and Nikki, I'll, you know, just shout out if you've got questions from your side.

0:54:8.50 --> 0:54:10.460
Maren Klein
Hello pretty. Can I just make?

0:54:11.510 --> 0:54:17.860
Maren Klein
Thank you. Comparison and addition to both presentations are fascinating.

0:54:19.610 --> 0:54:22.720
Maren Klein
Because some of the way that's great that okay. Yeah, of course.

0:54:24.440 --> 0:54:30.650
Maren Klein
So the way multi level governance in Europe in the European Union took.

0:54:31.960 --> 0:54:33.20
Maren Klein
Took route was.

0:54:34.100 --> 0:55:5.80
Maren Klein
The intertwining of the concept with the voice to the regions, and so in the mid 2000 period after a massive growth of the European Union's on 2004 with the 10 new countries joining you, had this conglomeration in 25 countries and the European Union could see very quickly, after one or two examples of elections and so on, that there was an enormous distance between the European Union and the ordinary person.

0:55:5.730 --> 0:55:36.20
Maren Klein
You know, in the backstreets of Paris or in or or in the gym itself or like and so there was a sense of making an appeal to the regions and it's starting to acknowledge the importance of regions as a place which is closer to the population and therefore able to involve not, not just giving a voice, but giving representation and an understanding what's happening at that level. There was also.

0:55:36.120 --> 0:56:6.370
Maren Klein
They won't call it sinister, that certainly a a an attempt to use the regions to undermine sovereign state. And what does that mean? Because the sovereign state is the the the members of the European Union were the ones who are are making it very difficult to see sovereignty over a whole range of functions and responsibilities by going around the the nation state and going to the regions. This was a way of undermining that nationalism.

0:56:6.460 --> 0:56:20.470
Maren Klein
Around the powers of the nation, state and and, and therefore the European Union being able to work more effectively, some of this today doesn't doesn't occur anymore and I'll just give you a very quick overview.

0:56:21.640 --> 0:56:51.870
Maren Klein
In 2009, with Lisbon training alongside, it was this recognition of the role of the Committee of the Regions. There was the establishment of the Committee of the Regions. There was a voice of the regions in the Parliament. It was like a, you know, 100 flowers blooming and it would now we're trying to give voice to ordinary European citizens that probably are not hearing the voice of over the European Parliament or the European Commission and so on.

0:56:51.970 --> 0:56:52.600
Maren Klein
And so forth.

0:56:54.700 --> 0:57:22.910
Maren Klein
The problem with this approach that we now have today is that you can also have you can also lose control of the of the regional approach and then in fact right now you could say that original approach in the European Union has cooled down tremendously. Why in large part because of some come some countries of the European Union where this multi level governance and the voice to the regions was meant to function it started.

0:57:22.990 --> 0:57:36.20
Maren Klein
To unravel, it started to take a course of its own. We saw that with Catalonia. We saw that even with Brexit, we saw that with Scotland and a wonderful example that I'm a little bit more familiar with is the question of Italy.

0:57:36.820 --> 0:57:37.350
Maren Klein
So.

0:57:38.490 --> 0:58:8.700
Maren Klein
Italy actually had long before the European Union woke up to this problem. Regional expression, not just between the North and South, but you actually had a an antagonistic party called the the Lega. The northern leaks already not only pushing for that kind of voice, but actually starting to take on governance in that respect. And so you see a fragmentation of the country on the basis of regionalism.

0:58:8.830 --> 0:58:34.800
Maren Klein
And this was pretty much a cold shower for the way the European Union started to see whether this was the right approach. In fact, today you don't hear a lot of noise about regionalism from the European Union, but probably it's not just because of the fact that you can actually lose control, and regionalism starts to take its own, its own shape politically. But on top of that.

0:58:36.400 --> 0:59:4.670
Maren Klein
The rise of of of the, let's say, antagonistic and hostile theories and ideology is now starting to come commonplace in the European Union, so you're more concerned about the Hungarians and the Poland's and the Italy's that don't even have to be broken up into regions where you get this reaction against the European Union. And the whole question of voice to the regions gets somewhere buried.

0:59:4.910 --> 0:59:25.580
Maren Klein
That underneath all of that. So this is a very different scenario from the two that were presented. But we did see multiple level governments emerge as a voice to the regions. And I think it's just simply been drowned out now and our own research and literature review that we've done.

0:59:26.820 --> 0:59:41.980
Maren Klein
It's it's no longer fashionable. I I've got a very good colleague in Italy and I asked him tell me what you know. He's he studies the European Union far more intensely than what I do. And when I mentioned multi level governance, just laughed at me.

0:59:43.140 --> 0:59:43.620
Maren Klein
Said.

0:59:44.460 --> 0:59:51.110
Maren Klein
Everything that's been said has been said, which is to say we're not too sure where this whole conversation is going anymore.

0:59:52.630 --> 1:0:0.330
Maren Klein
And whether it's relevant today as it might have been in 2009, so it's just a few examples of.

1:0:1.230 --> 1:0:13.100
Maren Klein
The European Union perspective, ohh. I wouldn't mind just coming into that. That's that's very, very interesting and makes me think about what that looks like in the work that we do.

1:0:14.430 --> 1:0:15.580
Maren Klein
And I don't think we.

1:0:16.350 --> 1:0:21.130
Maren Klein
You know, need to recognise that those very voices that people talking about about.

1:0:22.350 --> 1:0:32.900
Maren Klein
Politically, ideologically motivated voices that wanna come together to oppose and to drive a different agenda. You're sitting out in our communities.

1:0:34.450 --> 1:0:50.380
Maren Klein
Social media was a was a was it behind behind the things like the Antivax campaigns and things like. That's what I'm talking about so that that, that, that that happens out in rural communities so so when we get activity going on around things like energy transition the big one.

1:0:52.300 --> 1:0:59.170
Maren Klein
That we have part of our local communities activating against that for a whole range of reasons and that.

1:1:1.360 --> 1:1:2.150
Maren Klein
I want to die.

1:1:2.980 --> 1:1:9.230
Maren Klein
But what if you do multi level governance properly in the way that we've been talking about today you get.

1:1:10.110 --> 1:1:12.980
Maren Klein
A coalition of evidence driven.

1:1:13.580 --> 1:1:19.360
Maren Klein
Admitted, I'm from organisations with different levels of authority and they're not just the.

1:1:20.200 --> 1:1:24.830
Maren Klein
They're not just the usual leaders in a community and they they are networked.

1:1:25.840 --> 1:1:29.350
Maren Klein
Like a family and friends, it's amazing. Word of mouth is really.

1:1:31.730 --> 1:1:34.840
Maren Klein
So I'll give you an example of that wind farm.

1:1:36.20 --> 1:1:40.890
Maren Klein
You know the the action that's been happening around Victoria about, you know, a lot of.

1:1:43.100 --> 1:1:46.10
Maren Klein
Court appearance with all the rest of their opposing.

1:1:47.170 --> 1:1:50.180
Maren Klein
You know, they're the ones are out putting sticker as up on.

1:1:51.830 --> 1:1:58.230
Maren Klein
Ohh on walls and you know up there campaigning against this is what it's gonna do to our community and develop the data.

1:1:59.850 --> 1:2:5.390
Maren Klein
Because that coalition has grown those voices, which are small in number, but they're still acts.

1:2:6.260 --> 1:2:7.890
Maren Klein
At the end of the day, don't get to Guernsey.

1:2:8.730 --> 1:2:14.100
Maren Klein
Because the evidence is so strong in the Community, something to go ahead that it it.

1:2:15.570 --> 1:2:21.920
Maren Klein
It outweighs those activists. People were not there to necessarily for the right thing for community.

1:2:22.720 --> 1:2:28.150
Maren Klein
I think it's a really important point that you raised and I think we've got to pay attention to that.

1:2:29.190 --> 1:2:42.870
Maren Klein
In terms of, how do you mitigate against that, I'll think it's about evidence and it's about local people having the right knowledge to be able to come back and say, well, that's actually that's not true. And here's why it's not true.

1:2:43.550 --> 1:2:48.170
Maren Klein
Now, evidence in itself doesn't necessarily mitigate against, so you have an ideology.

1:2:49.310 --> 1:2:50.600
Maren Klein
Because you just says you're wrong.

1:2:52.20 --> 1:2:55.600
Maren Klein
And I've experienced that myself in our own community. But.

1:2:56.290 --> 1:3:12.530
Maren Klein
The broader community who are sensible, good people who want their community progress tend to outweigh those voices. So I hope that balance stays the way that it is. But I think it's very important point in terms of the work we're doing in small communities to understand that.

1:3:14.650 --> 1:3:14.980
Maren Klein
Don't.

1:3:17.590 --> 1:3:45.960
Maren Klein
Two points off. My first of all, when we talking about the European Union transposing that to the Australian situation, we have to be very careful, I believe because the Australia doesn't have that variety of cultures, languages and that sort of thing, which can help promote the issues. They've been divisive issues that you were talking about Bruno. And when we come to in the Australian situation, when we start to look at this and you talk about me.

1:3:46.920 --> 1:3:57.490
Maren Klein
Like the the agendas versus the other people trying to move forward, leadership is the thing that we talk about. Their leadership becomes very important I think.

1:3:58.230 --> 1:4:12.740
Maren Klein
Leadership is a bit easier in Australia would be in the European Union, he still gonna find the leaders. Doesn't mean that whether it's easy or not, you still have to have the people who are good leaders, not good administrators or good managers, but good leaders.

1:4:14.650 --> 1:4:15.40
Maren Klein
Yeah.

1:4:16.350 --> 1:4:16.600
Maren Klein
Really.

1:4:17.270 --> 1:4:47.480
Maren Klein
This is the point, Brian. Thanks for that. So I'd like to go again on the same point to compare oranges with apples because at the end of the day, we are comparing, you know, our case studies. You know some cases from Europe with Australia. Now you just touched one of the lessons, one of your key findings was the and neglect neglect the the federal government neglection which is which is you know a good point. So I would like to ask both of you.

1:4:47.860 --> 1:4:53.10
Maren Klein
And so feed them with your four basic points pillars.

1:4:55.530 --> 1:5:9.500
Maren Klein
Do you feel this neglection from the federal government? First? This the question for you. Clean them for you, Brian is I. I'd like to know. For example, in the case of of endemic, what's that? We federal government, did they?

1:5:10.950 --> 1:5:11.720
Maren Klein
Do anything.

1:5:13.200 --> 1:5:20.990
Maren Klein
Well, I think that will be the response. Was it to give to give credit to the feds.

1:5:22.490 --> 1:5:26.240
Maren Klein
That instance, they changed the whole thing, got rid of.

1:5:26.320 --> 1:5:34.770
Maren Klein
The the the previous operation but of links between state and federal and brought in the federal cabinet.

1:5:36.30 --> 1:5:38.640
Maren Klein
The federal cabinet and that.

1:5:39.610 --> 1:5:42.560
Maren Klein
Brought together a a level of of.

1:5:44.620 --> 1:5:50.850
Maren Klein
Consensus, when it came to how they were going to address the address, the issue of the pandemic.

1:5:51.590 --> 1:5:52.110
Maren Klein
Ohh.

1:5:53.470 --> 1:6:9.240
Maren Klein
It was interesting because there was a lot of clashing in them, but still went on between Tory and and the Commonwealth between NSW and Glory went NSW in the Commonwealth but still lower up. Managed to manage the band.

1:6:9.910 --> 1:6:14.510
Maren Klein
Or will as a result of that approach to the my view?

1:6:16.910 --> 1:6:18.880
Maren Klein
List of countries with time just.

1:6:20.300 --> 1:6:21.760
Maren Klein
I don't know. People have to leave, but.

1:6:23.830 --> 1:6:39.480
Maren Klein
There's some issues emerging for me through the conversation that I think are worth identifying in terms of their ongoing project, things to pay closer attention to. The first is kind of cool that out from from Bruno's comments and chatted with Karen.

1:6:40.700 --> 1:6:43.790
Maren Klein
About whether or not multi level governance.

1:6:44.420 --> 1:6:47.260
Maren Klein
That served to describe a.

1:6:50.840 --> 1:6:53.780
Maren Klein
If you like I an interventionist agenda.

1:6:54.830 --> 1:7:2.510
Maren Klein
About promoting the the role of regions as a meeting place reaccess to citizens or whatever, or whether it's mental concept.

1:7:4.260 --> 1:7:9.430
Maren Klein
Better to say whether we're talking about your report Australia. We are talking about the government.

1:7:10.720 --> 1:7:27.680
Maren Klein
Government that necessarily overlap with each other and how do we make sense of that and understand the implications of of that overlap and how can you manage with us it manager effectively when is it not managed effectively and so on and so forth. So one set of issues about what ideology versus.

1:7:29.120 --> 1:7:33.750
Maren Klein
Second thing, you don't think both of you contributed to this as well to bring you perhaps?

1:7:35.290 --> 1:7:36.820
Maren Klein
What more focused around?

1:7:38.170 --> 1:7:53.680
Maren Klein
The tension between understanding the the relationship of the period governments to to to to lower government, put it, and it seemed to me that all your examples were pointing to the problematic character of.

1:7:56.610 --> 1:8:0.610
Maren Klein
Of superior government intervention as opposed to.

1:8:1.260 --> 1:8:8.990
Maren Klein
Pharma whatever they like putting in that if you want my multi level governments to work the initiative has to be driven from.

1:8:10.160 --> 1:8:11.210
Maren Klein
But the ground.

1:8:12.110 --> 1:8:14.350
Maren Klein
Up rather than up down.

1:8:15.280 --> 1:8:45.530
Maren Klein
The example of the Obi sits in industry. Why there I think because it was very much, if you're like, not not federal government was very much have the initiative but it was very clearly part of the design feature that that the leadership would be local and the starting would be so that whilst even though it wasn't a top down initiative which basically said we're ceding control to local representatives.

1:8:46.440 --> 1:8:47.890
Maren Klein
That might be putting into stronger.

1:8:49.90 --> 1:9:3.630
Maren Klein
That that's one way of saying and the and the way in which the LB A was established. I think there's the respective of my particular comments there is that tension between in a multi level government.

1:9:4.420 --> 1:9:11.990
Maren Klein
Environment is what's what's the the respective dynamics of the superior and the lower.

1:9:13.630 --> 1:9:21.880
Maren Klein
How do we make sense of that? The third issue that comes through to me, I think that's the, again, implicit in both, but perhaps now more carefully.

1:9:22.570 --> 1:9:27.880
Maren Klein
Wait, specially if I carry it was around multi level governance is not just about the govern.

1:9:28.880 --> 1:9:29.820
Maren Klein
It is about.

1:9:30.730 --> 1:9:33.180
Maren Klein
Governments involving arrival time.

1:9:34.700 --> 1:9:37.340
Maren Klein
Baby, they research, be they be they.

1:9:40.770 --> 1:9:44.270
Maren Klein
I think those regions that we stick come from.

1:9:46.690 --> 1:9:49.470
Maren Klein
Mark. Yeah. I don't really think I mean.

1:9:51.320 --> 1:9:52.200
Maren Klein
Very clearly.

1:9:53.860 --> 1:9:55.40
Maren Klein
In the liquid shop.

1:9:55.820 --> 1:10:0.810
Maren Klein
Not the reasons why it's called the governance it's to.

1:10:1.960 --> 1:10:6.410
Maren Klein
Differentiated from government and I do think.

1:10:7.780 --> 1:10:10.440
Maren Klein
Enough money, quite interesting context.

1:10:12.290 --> 1:10:17.100
Maren Klein
How? It's just said it is talked down, but there's a little bit.

1:10:19.660 --> 1:10:20.830
Maren Klein
Do you think that's probably?

1:10:25.80 --> 1:10:26.440
Maren Klein
Ohh sorry yes the horizontal.

1:10:27.760 --> 1:10:29.30
Maren Klein
Ohh, I think it's a.

1:10:31.20 --> 1:10:48.800
Maren Klein
It's an interesting question because government plays an important role, right? Does local government, state government, federal government play a role? And if you think about basic services that we have in communities, that's their business. So we're not talking about, you know.

1:10:49.890 --> 1:11:10.0
Maren Klein
Setting up a new school, we might talk about where that school goes, whether it's needed is a different question, but you know, delivering the building, the rail line, I mean that, that's there. Their services that happen in the community and governance with those local government, you know collecting events or whatever it is, are there services that people expect and there may be.

1:11:11.610 --> 1:11:28.340
Maren Klein
Interesting opportunities out of those things, but I think there's a basis of what government does. I I think it's talking about something different to here and talking about governance in terms of coming back to your point, leadership is this formal leadership in organisations.

1:11:29.10 --> 1:11:37.510
Maren Klein
And I think your your comments about leadership strategic leadership are really important, so not transactional. We're talking about strategic leadership.

1:11:38.380 --> 1:11:39.810
Maren Klein
And I don't think you have to have a.

1:11:41.730 --> 1:11:45.800
Maren Klein
Position forward position to be a strategic leader and community.

1:11:47.440 --> 1:11:52.70
Maren Klein
So when we're talking about leadership here, I'm talking about.

1:11:52.780 --> 1:12:5.200
Maren Klein
People who could lay and and leadership takes the number of homes you can have. Quiet leadership can have up numbers. If we need to keep an open mind to what leadership looks like, and you can have collectively leadership.

1:12:6.40 --> 1:12:25.680
Maren Klein
So breaking down this idea about how people come together and what else they play, and it's amazing, just had a session earlier on that, you know, young woman who is leading work, she's just out of university and she uniform leadership. Ohh no, she's not the boy she liked in charge. So.

1:12:26.620 --> 1:12:37.270
Maren Klein
We we've got understand America that multi little governance is is a very different beast from my perspective than what we're talking about in formal establishment of government.

1:12:38.250 --> 1:12:47.410
Maren Klein
It's not what I'm talking about today. The government plays a role. It can play a better role than it does to enable this to do to be well, sorry. I was just wondering.

1:12:47.480 --> 1:12:49.940
Maren Klein
Keep for multi governments to work.

1:12:50.990 --> 1:12:51.600
Maren Klein
Talk about.

1:12:51.680 --> 1:12:52.120
Maren Klein
Ohh.

1:12:54.400 --> 1:13:3.220
Maren Klein
Approach and collaborations in the attackers like Europe, like some some state in Europe, they have a Long Beach.

1:13:4.110 --> 1:13:5.70
Maren Klein
Regions.

1:13:6.540 --> 1:13:8.130
Maren Klein
We can stay calm.

1:13:8.880 --> 1:13:18.310
Maren Klein
What they give you, please let keeps little experience, but from what I can see is like from from the bottom collaborations growing.

1:13:19.560 --> 1:13:22.580
Maren Klein
Very, very strongly so. It's like there is still a.

1:13:23.440 --> 1:13:31.110
Maren Klein
A lack of consciousness on the bottom to build regional consciousness and maybe for them.

1:13:31.190 --> 1:13:41.470
Maren Klein
Ohh it's important. Might take time because this regional culture still need to be done. I think it's a very important point and.

1:13:42.140 --> 1:13:54.110
Maren Klein
We are talking about demonstration of why this this is a good way to work and so I think there are still challenges with the traditional business as usual way of making decisions through local governor.

1:13:56.140 --> 1:14:3.790
Maren Klein
To be honest with you, in this room, you know, I think the local government model, as it's problems to back to the point about that so many of them.

1:14:4.850 --> 1:14:7.50
Maren Klein
And they are no different to.

1:14:8.170 --> 1:14:16.600
Maren Klein
People who get elected wanting to, you know, you have their pet projects and get reelected again. It's no different to politicians and the statement people.

1:14:17.450 --> 1:14:29.990
Maren Klein
Labelled so the models we've got of government actually work against in many ways this because it's it's it runs counter to the way they operate, but.

1:14:30.740 --> 1:14:49.350
Maren Klein
Think the momentum is growing and I have to do and what's happening is local communities saying to their local government you need to pay attention cause this is not the way you work with us. Get your act together. This is the way we want to work. Those people not gonna vote for councillors who don't pay attention.

1:14:50.30 --> 1:14:51.480
Maren Klein
I think the shift is starting to.

1:14:52.780 --> 1:14:55.560
Maren Klein
At the same time, see that on a local level.

1:14:57.210 --> 1:15:6.60
Maren Klein
Yes, they they are still there, unable to collaborate with neighbouring towns through. It's like every time. Ohh yeah great this thinking.

1:15:7.20 --> 1:15:30.350
Maren Klein
Individualistic and within those sounds, there's still, like, we still lack of leadership people. That's step up and try to think outside the box. I I I think the forestry work is starting to there's an opportunity for cross collaboration and communities collaborating on what they're learning and common common things we've just been talking about that as an emerging opportunity.

1:15:30.990 --> 1:15:31.540
Maren Klein
Um.

1:15:32.620 --> 1:15:34.30
Maren Klein
And and and I think.

1:15:35.660 --> 1:15:41.880
Maren Klein
I'm trying to thought, but particularly around there are communities around Australia, so we're doing some case study work at the moment.

1:15:42.880 --> 1:15:47.440
Maren Klein
Regional Strategy Institute on communities that are ahead of the game here.

1:15:48.570 --> 1:15:51.530
Maren Klein
And their local members and their local councillors.

1:15:52.250 --> 1:15:54.240
Maren Klein
Understand this collaboration work.

1:15:55.300 --> 1:15:58.160
Maren Klein
And they are operating as elected representative, very good.

1:15:58.890 --> 1:16:2.220
Maren Klein
To particularly something independent Members of Parliament.

1:16:3.130 --> 1:16:6.40
Maren Klein
OK. Yeah, instance indeed.

1:16:7.120 --> 1:16:9.380
Maren Klein
There are leading ways in which governments.

1:16:11.300 --> 1:16:11.960
Maren Klein
Position of.

1:16:12.760 --> 1:16:25.160
Maren Klein
Elected member. I think that movement's growing, and I think that's the shift in politics that's going to happen. I think government's gonna have to be forced to say we're gonna lose ground here if we don't pay attention to this.

1:16:26.390 --> 1:16:27.540
Maren Klein
I think that's the incentive.

1:16:28.770 --> 1:16:28.950
Maren Klein
Now.

1:16:34.250 --> 1:16:34.580
Maren Klein
Question.

1:16:34.700 --> 1:16:35.890
Maren Klein
Turn off computer.

1:16:37.20 --> 1:16:38.550
Maren Klein
That's how it's working well.

1:16:39.670 --> 1:16:40.100
Maren Klein
Of the team.

1:16:43.370 --> 1:16:44.300
Maren Klein
Get that feedback?

1:16:46.780 --> 1:16:48.280
Maren Klein
Say no, that's very good.

1:16:48.610 --> 1:16:58.540
Maren Klein
I feel like saying we're not prepared earlier, so having a look at these case studies, Nick and I have from our experience with the LBA.

1:16:59.590 --> 1:17:1.990
Maren Klein
Have you got the bit about an assessment?

1:17:4.10 --> 1:17:6.940
Maren Klein
Framework. So what are the conditions like?

1:17:7.630 --> 1:17:20.780
Maren Klein
What are the conditions for success? How can we assist? What stage of development these conditions are in and would be really interesting to see which ones stand out was the ones that are tough.

1:17:21.540 --> 1:17:35.990
Maren Klein
Which ones that are easier? And I think we just been talking about whether we could apply that to some of the work that's currently going on. We're going to apply to four case studies around Australia. It's very early work, but it should help us.

1:17:37.420 --> 1:17:38.260
Maren Klein
Uncover.

1:17:38.860 --> 1:17:39.770
Maren Klein
What does the sinks?

1:17:40.290 --> 1:17:49.160
Maren Klein
Ohh, resources and skill of facilitation needs to do to build the to finally get that feedback from the top down.

1:17:51.660 --> 1:17:56.990
Maren Klein
Well, doing presentation next week in Canberra, so we starting to say hey, listen here.

1:17:58.810 --> 1:18:0.260
Maren Klein
New transition authority.

1:18:2.270 --> 1:18:3.40
Maren Klein
It's been announced.

1:18:3.760 --> 1:18:4.120
Maren Klein
Um.

1:18:5.200 --> 1:18:8.70
Maren Klein
With the training influence, the design of that if you can.

1:18:9.60 --> 1:18:13.40
Maren Klein
And the topic gonna get people right is to listen.

1:18:13.820 --> 1:18:43.770
Maren Klein
Technique which can be really useful in this particular what we're talking about here is the use of system mapping hmm which I have been involved in a few of these exercises now and the amount of information you find out about the system that you're involved. Let's face it, what we're talking about here is the system better, and that's why we could talk about the many various tyres, the agents within the system. If you want to know.

1:18:43.980 --> 1:18:48.720
Maren Klein
The system operates systems mapping is an ideal way of doing that.

1:18:49.550 --> 1:19:7.220
Maren Klein
I think that's a great suggestion and the other thing that we haven't done very well is network and napping. So the multi level governments mapping, I'm afraid very good example that the CD conference a couple of years ago in Norway they they had this fantastic map, the collaboration across the country.

1:19:8.920 --> 1:19:9.550
Maren Klein
Not so bad.

1:19:9.640 --> 1:19:12.570
Maren Klein
Yeah. Do you have tonight that you're in?

1:19:15.410 --> 1:19:15.800
Maren Klein
Feedback.

1:19:17.130 --> 1:19:22.710
Maren Klein
Sorry, what's your question? Anything for that thing back structure within the European context, the government? No, have they?

1:19:23.530 --> 1:19:26.870
Maren Klein
I haven't this mapping about how you identify those.

1:19:27.720 --> 1:19:37.730
Maren Klein
This is the. This is the system stuff around the collaboration was that look like has amply out have you know where it is cause we do we do it not sure we collecting that knowledge and now.

1:19:41.180 --> 1:19:42.490
Maren Klein
That would be the most popular.

1:19:42.890 --> 1:19:43.110
Maren Klein
Yeah.

1:19:44.490 --> 1:19:46.90
Maren Klein
Systems are 17th.

1:19:47.330 --> 1:19:48.910
Maren Klein
Good, good, good, good example.

1:19:50.760 --> 1:19:51.380
Maren Klein
Quickly.

1:19:51.520 --> 1:19:52.110
Maren Klein
The reality?

1:19:54.490 --> 1:19:55.450
Maren Klein
Some of the tweeting.

1:19:56.670 --> 1:20:0.880
Maren Klein
Done that, but it's pretty lost. The sister city 20.

1:20:2.30 --> 1:20:9.200
Maren Klein
You're paying European country union, but the very active in that in that space before.

1:20:10.400 --> 1:20:24.610
Maren Klein
But tweeting and sister cities today see there's been the done. I I think the two reasons is important. One to understand that people who are actually involved on their governments to understand what they're working with the systems around.

1:20:25.830 --> 1:20:31.80
Maren Klein
Collaboration very grateful, but also I think secondly.

1:20:32.700 --> 1:20:36.570
Maren Klein
It it, it helps demonstrate to people.

1:20:37.560 --> 1:20:41.650
Maren Klein
Yeah, have a look at this. This is what's happening. Have a look at the multi level governance map.

1:20:43.280 --> 1:20:48.570
Maren Klein
In this community around this work, people go ohh my God, this is really impressive and you get a large.

1:20:51.510 --> 1:20:55.720
Maren Klein
We, we, we we can't show that at the moment, can you?

1:20:57.300 --> 1:20:57.970
Maren Klein
Not easily.

1:20:58.940 --> 1:21:0.150
Maren Klein
Can put you, yeah.

1:21:3.710 --> 1:21:4.850
Maren Klein
Yeah, yeah.

1:21:6.610 --> 1:21:9.190
Maren Klein
Alright, him to 3/4.

1:21:10.620 --> 1:21:11.350
Maren Klein
We done?

1:21:13.270 --> 1:21:15.170
Maren Klein
I think we're actually only just started.

1:21:17.930 --> 1:21:21.540
Maren Klein
But thanks. Thanks so much today to Karen Brown, but just terrific.

1:21:21.620 --> 1:21:22.170
Maren Klein
Yeah.

1:21:22.920 --> 1:21:28.910
Maren Klein
It stimulates the conversation that we need to do, I think.

1:21:29.570 --> 1:21:32.270
Maren Klein
Ring me up if you've been taking notes.

1:21:33.270 --> 1:21:43.820
Maren Klein
We have a lot of work for the yes, but getting some some kind of summary of the of the analyst should county share, you're good.

1:21:44.160 --> 1:21:45.920
Maren Klein
You got my sponsor you to share them.

1:21:47.180 --> 1:22:3.100
Maren Klein
And we've got Bronwyn's notes. So you'll have, you've got to see that. Yeah, absolutely. So we've got rich foundation there for taking our conversation with another step further. And then a second seminar on the 25th of May at 5:00 o'clock.

1:22:3.810 --> 1:22:12.460
Maren Klein
That the wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Congestive. So they'll two more cases, these two, this time, 2 European cases will be a chance to to.

1:22:12.540 --> 1:22:12.790
Maren Klein
Well.

1:22:15.480 --> 1:22:19.430
Maren Klein
Reflect on these issues, but also no doubt, new issues that arise as well.

1:22:20.730 --> 1:22:21.360
Maren Klein
Your instinct.

1:22:22.500 --> 1:22:26.100
Maren Klein
Thank you so much. Thank you. You're everybody. Thanks. The other chair. Nice to meet you.

1:22:26.810 --> 1:22:35.90
Maren Klein
Yes, I mean, you're, you're too actually presenters, but both of them outside the city both travel in so. So thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

1:22:38.560 --> 1:22:40.70
Maren Klein
OK, I have to write.

1:22:41.0 --> 1:22:41.730
Maren Klein
Couldn't catch you up.

1:22:43.270 --> 1:22:43.720
Maren Klein
*****.

1:22:44.850 --> 1:22:46.120
Maren Klein
OK, that'd be great.

1:22:46.380 --> 1:22:48.890
Maren Klein
Really look like your about to getting involved in this.