What law firms look for in a job applicant

VISUAL: What law firms look for in a job applicant. Rob Hulls, Director, Centre for Innovative Justice (CIJ) talks about tips for writing a CV that cuts through the clutter with John Cain, Senior Lawyer and Chairman of CIJ Advisory Board. RMIT University logo.

VISUAL: Video of tram passing in front of Swanston Academic Building as camera pans up the façade of Swanston Academic Building, RMIT to the roof and the sky above.

VISUAL: Video of male student walking into a lecture theatre in RMIT’s SwanstonAcademicBuilding towards a desk. Another male student is following him into the lecture room. There are other students already seated.

Rob Hulls: Well, here we are at the magnificent SABBuilding in ...

VISUAL: Video of six male and female students walking through the entrance foyer of Swanston Academic Building and four students are descending and alighting from the escalator into the entrance foyer.

Rob Hulls: ... Swanston Street ...

VISUAL: Video of the student centre in the SwanstonAcademicBuilding. Two female students are walking through the centre of the room. Also male and female students are sitting at the benches. In the background a student is speaking to two female staff members at the information desk.

Rob Hulls: ... and I'm with ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls, Director, Centre for Innovative Justice speaking to John Cain who is off-screen. Rob Hulls smiles as he greets John Cain.

Rob Hulls: ... John Cain. Great to see you, John.

VISUAL: John Cain, Senior lawyer and Chairman of CIJ Advisory Board speaking with Rob Hulls who is also on?screen.

John Cain: Great to be here, Rob, in this very nice building.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls looking at and speaking to John Cain who is off?screen.

Rob Hulls: John, so what students always want to know is what makes a CV, particularly the JD students, they send off a lot of applications to firms like yours and other firms and they want to know what it is that makes their CV interesting to people who are going to read it.

VISUAL: John Cain looking at and speaking with Rob Hulls who is off?screen.

Rob Hulls: What are the three things, you reckon, makes a good CV?

John Cain: Look, I think you've got to see the CV, not in isolation, but see it, the let ... the covering letter and the CV as one document because ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls listening to John Cain who is speaking off-screen. Rob Hulls raises his eyebrows as John Cain mentions 700 to 800 applications.

John Cain: ... a firm like ours would get about 700 to 800 applications each year ...

VISUAL: John Cain looking at and speaking to Rob Hulls who is off?camera.

John Cain: ... and we use electronic mechanisms like CV Mail but somebody also reads each application. So if you've got to read that many applications something's got to ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls looking at and listening to John Cain who is off?screen.

John Cain: ... jump out and hit you at ... from the letter.

Rob Hull: Right.

John Cain: So you've got to make ...

VISUAL: John Cain looking at and speaking to Rob Hulls who is off?screen.

John Cain: ... that letter interesting. And the thing about CVs is that every student ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls looking at and listening to John Cain who is off?screen.

John Cain: ... generally, has good marks or they've worked hard, they do interesting things ...

VISUAL: John Cain looking at and speaking to Rob Hulls who is off?screen.

John Cain: ... and they're quite balanced in their approach. But the critical thing is to try and pull one or two key things out of them that are going to distinguish them from the crowd.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls looking at and speaking to John Cain who is off?screen.

Rob Hulls: And students always worry about their marks, of course; they're told they've got to work hard and they've got to try and get straight?As. Is that ever, or often, the determining factor that gets ...

VISUAL: John Cain looking at, initially listening and then speaking to Rob Hulls who is off?screen.

Rob Hulls: ... students over the line in relation to their CVs or not?

John Cain: When CVs are reviewed, they certainly look at marks but you're not looking for a Distinction average for everybody; if they've got reasonable marks and they've made a reasonable effort at working at their degree ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls looking at and listening to John Cain who is off?screen.

John Cain: ... then that will get them through to the next step.

VISUAL: John Cain looking at and speaking to Rob Hulls who is off?screen.

John Cain: And then from there, that's when it's critical that there's something interesting about them. They've got to tell something about themselves, something interesting they've done, something that they know about the firm they're applying to. The biggest mistake they can make is just produce the stock-standard application letter and CV that's identical for every firm because you can ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls looking at and speaking with John Cain who is off?screen.

John Cain: ... spot them a mile away.

Rob Hulls: Sure and a lot of students volunteer these days, we get a lot of students at the Centre for Innovative Justice. Is volunteering work at a centre like ours or a community legal centre or Meals on Wheels or whatever, do people who read CVs take that into account?

VISUAL: John Cain speaking and sitting next to Rob Hulls.

John Cain: Certainly do and what we're looking for ...

VISUAL: Camera starts to pan in to focus on John Cain who is speaking to Rob Hulls who is now off?screen.

John Cain: ... is people that are balanced, so you're looking for people that are going to fit well into the firm.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls speaking with John Cain who is off?screen.

Rob Hulls: No wonder I couldn't get into a firm (chuckling).

John Cain: (Chuckling) Yeah, the holes in the sieve aren't quite that wide, Rob.

VISUAL: John Cain speaking with Rob Hulls who is off?screen. John Cain is smiling at the beginning from their previous joking.

John Cain: But they ... the key is to, when you're reading them, to identify people who are going to fit. Law firms invest a lot of money in graduates, they train them and they want them to stay on so that whole issue around fit is important. And the components of that are: a good degree, so reasonable marks; an interesting life outside of work; and the CV's also got to tell people or the application’s got to tell people that they've got a strong work ethic. So they're probably the three components that I think are critical.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls speaking to John Cain who is off?screen.

Rob Hulls: And what about the idea of just knocking cold on a law firm's doors, particularly, in regional or rural Victoria, for instance, is that a possibility for students?

VISUAL: John Cain speaking with Rob Hulls who is off?screen.

John Cain: It is and I think you've got to ... there's a couple of pathways you can look at. The ... getting a traineeship is clearly the best and preferred way but given there are limited places and an overwhelming number of applicants, not everybody's going to get them. So then you've got to look at what's the next step after that and it's critical to just get a way in and sometimes that is doing a bit of work as a paralegal or a law clerk in a law firm to gain some experience and often the only way you'll get that work is to be quite determined and go and knock on doors. But don't ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls listening to and nodding at John Cain who is off?screen.

John Cain: ...but be careful about it, go and have a look and see, make sure the firm's got a prospect of engaging you.

VISUAL: John Cain speaking with Rob Hulls who is off?screen.

John Cain: But there are opportunities; there are lots of large litigation around that ... class actions and cases like that, that require paralegals to do a lot of the document work. Don't frown on that sort of work, have a look at it because it, at least, gives you some exposure to a law firm. Chances are they might have a look at you, see the work that you do, like what you do and offer you something else. And the key thing is that you've got to get a start somewhere, it doesn't really matter where you are. Over the course of four or five years people come and people go, opportunities arise and if you're persistent and resilient in the process you'll get there in the end.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls speaking with John Cain who is off?screen.

Rob Hulls: And a lot of our JD students, well, they're all post-graduate students, some are mature-aged students, is that an advantage or a disadvantage as far as you're concerned?

VISUAL: John Cain speaking and sitting beside Rob Hulls.

John Cain: It's a bit of a double-edged sword; it's an advantage in that they have generally come from doing something else so they're a bit more mature and having decided to do a JD ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls listening to John Cain who is off?camera.

John Cain: ... they're pretty determined that they want to do law and they're not going to do it for a short time and then go and do something else.

VISUAL: John Cain speaking to Rob Hulls who is off?camera.

John Cain: So that's a positive. The negative is though because they're often working or it's quite an intense course, they don't have as many opportunities to do the volunteering or the extracurricular activities so that can sometimes work against them. So I think on balance, again, it depends on the individual, it's about selling the key things that you've done in the past that are going to set you aside from the crowd and tell the law firm that you are somebody that they should want to have on their team.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls speaking to John Cain who is off?screen.

Rob Hulls: Okay, so obviously, marks are important but they're not the most determinative thing in relation to a person's CV; something a bit innovative, something that captures the imagination of the person reading the CV. What about hobbies, John? We always get CVs where someone puts on there (chuckling) as part of their background, oh, my hobbies are ... is that important? Does anyone care about that?

VISUAL: John Cain speaking to Rob Hulls who is off?screen.

John Cain: If they're interesting hobbies, yes (both chuckling). So you've got to ... it's all about balance. CVs are funny things; you know you get people that put in what they did at school. Well, I know they went to school, they got through VCE and got an ENTER score, so I know they've done that, I don't need to know all that. But if they're doing things that are a bit interesting, diverse, then I do want to know about it because it helps me work out where ... how they're going to fit into the firm. So somebody that plays a lot of sport or is involved in music or community activities, I'll be able to, when I read that, think oh yeah, that person's going to go alright in this firm because ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls looking at, nodding and listening to John Cain who is off?screen.

John Cain: ... they've got interests that are similar to other people in the place.

VISUAL: John Cain speaking with Rob Hulls who is off?screen.

John Cain: The other tip, I think, is worth students thinking about is know something about the firm, know a case that the firm was involved in, know an area that a partner is particularly interested in. Now, it may surprise you, Rob, but lawyers have big egos.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls laughing with John Cain who is off?screen.

John Cain: And if you can in some way ...

Rob Hulls: Unlike academics, of course (chuckling).

VISUAL: John Cain speaking with Rob Hulls who is off?screen. John Cain is smiling.

John Cain: Unlike academics and former politicians.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls listening to and smiling at John Cain who is off?screen.

John Cain: But if you can somehow play to ...

VISUAL: John Cain speaking with Rob Hulls who is off?screen.

John Cain: ... that ego; don't lay it on with a trowel, be measured about it, but if you can do that then that is going to stand you out so that's also important. So research and something beyond just looking at the firm's website is very important.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls speaking to John Cain who is off?screen.

Rob Hulls: Well, thanks, John. That's fantastic advice and I'm sure students will ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls speaking with John Cain who is sitting beside him.

Rob Hulls: ... appreciate it. And students, you've learnt ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls speaking to the camera and smiling at the end.

Rob Hulls: ... maybe, something new - lawyers are real people and they're actually looking for real people with diverse backgrounds. Thanks very much for listening.

VISUAL: Video of the façade of Swanston’s Academic Building showing the portico and RMIT’s logo on a sign on the railing of the portico.

VISUAL: RMITUniversity’s logo and website www.rmit.edu.au. This video features the audio Deep Chill available under a royalty free license.

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