What makes a good advocate

VISUAL: What makes a good advocate? Rob Hulls, Director, Centre for Innovative Justice talks with Magistrate Pauline Spencer, Magistrates’ Court of Victoria about what makes a good advocate. RMIT University logo.

VISUAL: Video of five male students walking through foyer in Swanston Academic Building, RMIT.

VISUAL: Video of a male student wearing backpack ascending an escalator to second floor.

VISUAL: Video side?on view of male and female students sitting in classroom, lecturer is at the front of the room teaching.

VISUAL: Video of the same male and female students sitting in classroom listening to male lecturer, who has his back to the camera.

Rob Hulls: It's my pleasure to have as my ...

VISUAL: Video of Rob Hulls speaking to camera, Magistrate Pauline Spencer is sitting on his left. RMIT logo and title appears at bottom of screen: Rob Hulls, Director, Centre for Innovative Justice, RMIT University.

Rob Hulls: ... guest today, Pauline Spencer, who is a magistrate here in Victoria.

VISUAL: Video of Rob Hulls turning to look at Pauline Spencer who is now facing the camera, Rob Hulls has his back now to the camera.

Rob Hulls: Pauline, welcome.

Pauline Spencer: Thank you, Rob.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls and Pauline Spencer looking at each other and talking, side?on to camera.

Rob Hulls: Could you just tell us a bit about your role as a magistrate, where do you sit and what sort of cases do you hear?

VISUAL: Pauline Spencer speaking front?on to camera; Rob Hulls has his back to the camera. RMIT logo and title appears at bottom of screen: Magistrate Pauline Spencer, Magistrates’ Court of Victoria.

Pauline Spencer: Well, I currently sit out at the Dandenong Magistrates Court which is at the south eastern suburbs of Melbourne; one of the very busy courts outside of the City Court.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls and Pauline Spencer looking at each other and talking, side-on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: I hear cases ranging from criminal law, both bail applications, pleas of guilty and contested hearings ...

VISUAL: Close up of Pauline Spencer speaking side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... family violence, intervention order matters, a little bit of family law and also civil law like contract disputes.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls and Pauline Spencer looking at each other and talking, side?on to camera.

Rob Hulls: And most of the cases that come before you, do people represent themselves or are they represented by a barrister or a solicitor or some form of counsel?

VISUAL: Close up of Pauline Spencer speaking side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: Mm, that's an interesting point because traditionally, there's been quite a lot of legal representation with Legal Aid duty lawyers; we have duty lawyers on staff at the court every day.

VISUAL: Close up of Rob Hulls listening and nodding, side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: Recently, there's been some guideline changes which have meant that ...

VISUAL: Close up of Pauline Spencer speaking side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... duty lawyers are appearing less frequently because of the load of matters they have. They've had to cut down on their ...

VISUAL: Close up of Rob Hulls listening and nodding, side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... the types of matters they see and really target their ...

VISUAL: Close up of Pauline Spencer speaking side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... appearances. So we're seeing more and more people who are representing themselves.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls and Pauline Spencer speaking together, side?on to camera.

Rob Hulls: But of those people that are represented, I'm sure you've seen some pretty good counsel, some pretty lousy counsel.

VISUAL: Close up of Pauline Spencer listening, side?on to camera.

Rob Hulls: What makes a lousy counsel? For our students who are thinking of getting into ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls and Pauline Spencer speaking together, side?on to camera.

Rob Hulls: ... the law, obviously, and want to be a barrister or a solicitor or whatever, what's a lousy counsel, as far as you're concerned?

Pauline Spencer: Yes, well, it's ...

VISUAL: Close up of Pauline Spencer speaking side-on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... I think for me, it's someone who hasn't prepared, you know, if you don't prepare you go into court, you don't know what you're trying to get across so you're a bit all over the place. And I think if people can think about who their target audience is so the Magistrate, me, sitting ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls and Pauline Spencer speaking together, side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... up there hearing the case, I know nothing about it; I need to know very quickly ...

VISUAL: Close up of Pauline Spencer speaking, side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... in a busy list, what's going on and what I'm going to do. So someone who comes in and just starts rambling and going off on a tangent, I call it going down the rabbit hole; you kind of feel where am I going with this? And you lose interest and you lose ...

VISUAL: Camera pans out on Pauline Spencer speaking, side?on to camera (Rob Hulls is listening with his back to camera).

Pauline Spencer: ... the thread of what they're saying and then suddenly you don't know what you're doing ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls and Pauline Spencer speaking together, side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... and that's not helpful.

Rob Hull: Obviously not. And you've obviously seen some good barristers, some good counsel, good solicitors, good legal representatives. In your view, what, apart from preparation, of course ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls speaking, his back is to the camera and Pauline Spencer is listening, facing the camera.

Rob Hulls: ... what does make a good legal representative in your court?

Pauline Spencer: I think if you, the legal rep turns their mind to what the magistrate is needing to decide, so put themselves in our shoes and say okay, what is the law that the magistrate has to consider?

VISUAL: Close up of Rob Hulls listening and nodding, side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: What are the other factors the magistrate has to consider?

VISUAL: Pauline Spencer, speaking, facing the camera; Rob Hulls is listening with his back to the camera.

Pauline Spencer: And just make sure you hone in your submissions to those points so you're really taking us on a journey: you're saying this is the law, this is the situation, this is what I am submitting as an appropriate outcome. And if you're organised in the way you approach that ...

VISUAL: Close up of Rob Hulls listening and nodding, side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... and you're giving us all the information we need to make the decision ...

VISUAL: Pauline Spencer speaking, facing the camera; Rob Hulls is listening with his back to the camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... then we're going to feel more comfortable making the decision that you're wanting us to make.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls speaking, with his back to the camera; Pauline Spencer listening, facing the camera.

Rob Hulls: And there will be a lot of law students watching this ...

VISUAL: Camera pans out on Rob Hulls and Pauline Spencer speaking together side?on to camera.

Rob Hulls: ... if you were to give one or two tips to law students who are not too sure about their career path at the moment but thinking of becoming an advocate, what would those one or two things that you'd want to tell them be?

VISUAL: Close up of Pauline Spencer speaking, side?on to camera.

Pauline Spencer: I think you need to think about what you're passionate about. The law is a tough game and if you are going into something that you're not passionate about, you're going to find that you're going to be working hard and long hours and you're not going to be happy. So try to find something that you're passionate about and that could be something surprising. So I suppose my first recommendation would be to try as many things as you can: volunteer, do work experience in all the different areas of law, even ones you don't think you might be interested in 'cause you never know it might be the thing that is interesting in the long run.

VISUAL: Rob Hulls and Pauline Spencer speaking side?on to camera.

Rob Hull: Often we read, in the paper, about judges being out of touch and we see on the television, a family walking out of court and they're aggrieved and they say the law is out of touch and judges don't know what's happening in the real world ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls speaking with back to camera; Pauline Spencer is listening facing camera.

Rob Hulls: ... how, as a magistrate, a senior judicial official in this State ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls and Pauline Spencer speaking together, side?on to camera.

Rob Hulls: ... do you deal with those sorts of accusations? What do you say to people who believe judges are out of touch?

VISUAL: Pauline Spencer speaking facing camera; Rob Hulls is listening with his back to camera.

Pauline Spencer: Yeah, well, it's an interesting theme because there is that concern and I think, for me, I feel very in touch with the community just because of the people that I'm seeing every day. So if you think of any given day that I'm sitting in court, I'm seeing, you know, it could be three or four cases, but more often than not ...

VISUAL: Close up of Rob Hulls listening and nodding.

Pauline Spencer: ... up to 50, 60 cases (chuckling) in a day, where I'm seeing ...

VISUAL: Pauline Spencer speaking facing camera; Rob Hulls is listening with his back to camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... all those people, hearing all their stories, whether it be issues around drug addiction, mental health, family violence, separation and divorce, children's issues ...

VISUAL: Close up of Rob Hulls listening and nodding.

Pauline Spencer: ... all those types of issues I'm dealing with on a daily basis ...

VISUAL: Pauline Spencer speaking facing camera; Rob Hulls is listening with his back to camera.

Pauline Spencer: ... so I'm hearing about the stories of people in the community so I feel like I'm very much in touch with the community.

VISUAL: Camera pans to close up on Pauline Spencer speaking, facing camera.

Pauline Spencer: Also, I'm sitting on the ... as a Victims of Crime Tribunal member so I hear the stories of the victims of crime as well and so that's really important, so I'm hearing those perspectives.

VISUAL: Close up of Rob Hulls listening and nodding.

Pauline Spencer: So I always get a little bit surprised about that comment because I feel like I'm hearing those stories every day.

VISUAL: Close up of Pauline Spencer speaking, facing camera.

Pauline Spencer: But I think, you know, I come from a particular background and I'm lucky enough to have had a good education and be in a good job and to live a certain life, so I need to make sure I'm constantly educating myself about what's going on in other communities and whether they're newly arrived communities we don't know about or they're particular concerns about particular legal areas such as family violence, I need to make sure that I'm reading and learning as much as I can along the way.

VISUAL: Close up of Rob Hulls speaking, side?on to camera.

Rob Hulls: Well, that's great, Pauline, thanks very much for joining us.

VISUAL: Camera pans out as Rob Hulls looks at the camera; Pauline Spencer is sitting to his left, smiling and nodding.

Rob Hulls: And students, there's a few tips there: be passionate about what you want to do, try as many things as possible and if you want to be an advocate in court make sure you prepare properly ...

VISUAL: Close up of Pauline Spencer listening and nodding.

Rob Hulls: ... and be succinct. And ...

VISUAL: Rob Hulls speaking to camera; Pauline Spencer is sitting to his left. Both give a big smile at the conclusion of Rob Hull’s speech.

Rob Hulls: ... we'll be as succinct as we can by finishing up now. Thanks for joining us.

VISUAL: RMIT University’s logo and website www.rmit.edu.au. This video features the audio Los Cabos available under a royalty free license.

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