Welcome to the Great Attention Recession.
This live-streamed event brings together leading voices in CX, digital marketing, and brand from leaders at Thinkerbell, Bega and Pedestrian Group. The group will explore the forces behind collapsing attention spans and the shifting algorithm economy. More importantly, you’ll hear practical strategies for cutting through the noise, holding focus, and connecting in ways that last, without burning out your audience (or yourself).
Expect candid insights, real-world examples, and a little tough love ... because let’s face it, algorithms don’t love you back.
0:00:00:00 - 00:00:18:11
Speaker 1
A big welcome, everyone. It's so excited to have everyone here in person. And for all of you that are joining us online, a big welcome to you, too. Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wu Wurung and Boon Wurung language groups of the Eastern kulin nations on whose unceded land we conduct the business of the university.
00:00:18:13 - 00:00:49:03
Speaker 1
I would like to respectfully acknowledge their elders past, present and emerging, and also extend that respect to the traditional custodians and ancestors of the lands and waters across Australia. So if you don't know who I am, I'm Anshu I am the Director of Customer Success and Growth at RMIT online. And RMIT online. We have a vision and a mission of building a community of lifelong learners and helping them navigate the world of work, which we all know is a really, really challenging space at the moment.
00:00:49:05 - 00:01:10:04
Speaker 1
And as part of that mission, we've created the Future Skills Fest, of which this is day two. So we have a week of online events, and in-person events for you all where we've brought in our industry partners, members of our community, to helpfully share some insights that help you sharpen your edge and help navigate the challenging world of work today.
00:01:10:06 - 00:01:33:09
Speaker 1
And we have an amazing panel, which I'll introduce, very soon. But today we are talking about, the great attention recession. You know, we're living in a world where we've got endless feeds, 15 second videos, changing our algorithms that are changing at lightning speed. And so winning and keeping that attention is becoming more and more challenging.
00:01:33:11 - 00:01:51:08
Speaker 1
And things that worked for us yesterday aren't necessarily working for us today. So how do we navigate that and how do we unpack that? And that's the purpose of the session today, is really to look at what are the forces behind those shrinking attention spans. How do we navigate the algorithm economy? And most importantly, how do we get cut through?
00:01:51:09 - 00:02:11:16
Speaker 1
How do we get cut through with the content that we're creating that doesn't burn out our audience and also doesn't burn out our teams? So we've got an amazing panel panel of sharp minded individuals who are coming in to provide insights around the impacts of that and unpicking how we can go beyond the click and actually build trust and connection with our audience.
00:02:11:18 - 00:02:31:09
Speaker 1
So we're on day two of this future skills fest. If you missed it yesterday, we had a great keynote from Nigel Dalton. So please go and check that out. And we've got some amazing sessions planned for the rest of the week. So, please make sure that you check those out as well. And whilst we've got the panel coming on board, we do want this to be an interactive session with our audience.
00:02:31:13 - 00:02:52:17
Speaker 1
So we'll sprinkle some Slido questions throughout the session. We'll have a Q&A at the end to allow you to ask our panel some questions as well. And, we'll have a roaming mic within the in-person event. And if you're on zoom and you want to ask questions, please put them directly into the zoom chat and we will try and get to as many as we can, this morning.
00:02:52:21 - 00:03:20:19
Speaker 1
So without further ado, I would like to invite our panel to please come on board. So we have Bridget Cleary, who is the CEO at BRX. Joining us, George Fink, who is the brand manager at Bega, Mason Rook, who is the managing director at pedestrian Group, and Matt Plant, who is the head of behavioral science and AI, which is a very, sexy, title, from Thinkerbell
00:03:20:21 - 00:03:41:13
Speaker 1
All right. Welcome panel. So nice to have you on board. Have been having lots of great conversations already this morning. But I'm going to start with the tough question. Which is what's the funniest or the strangest thing that's recently grabbed your attention online? And, Mason, I might start with you for that one.
00:03:41:15 - 00:03:57:03
Speaker 2
I'm a pretty simple guy, so right now I'm still obsessed with the AI baby videos where they start making them talk. I know I shouldn't. I know it's AI driven and it's completely fake, but I just find it hilarious. And so. Yeah, that's my thing.
00:03:57:04 - 00:04:22:20
Speaker 3
Yeah. How about you, Georgia? I'm, very much a TikTok. I do dabble in the TikTok. And I think one, one that's really stood out to me the last couple of months in particular, is that the Nicki Minaj in Stiletto challenge? It's a, viral trend where you've got, just people who, jumping on TikTok and wearing stilettos and standing on different products.
00:04:22:22 - 00:04:33:22
Speaker 3
And it's quite, it's quite funny, quite remarkable as well. And you got found as an employee standing on their own products, you know. Yeah. Pretty unique trend, but disrupting, from a digital.
00:04:33:22 - 00:04:35:10
Speaker 2
Space. Have you tried it?
00:04:35:12 - 00:04:36:20
Speaker 3
I have not. No.
00:04:37:00 - 00:04:38:16
Speaker 1
It's a bit scary looking.
00:04:38:18 - 00:04:40:18
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. Bridget, I'm.
00:04:40:19 - 00:04:57:00
Speaker 1
I'm in a similar place to Mason. I just love the. There's this thing of AI dogs that come in with the hose and water the whole living room at the moment, and it looks so real. But you see, it from every kind of dog breed and everything. And I just think that that's a great use of AI. Yeah, it's fun.
00:04:57:02 - 00:04:59:02
Speaker 1
Matt.
00:04:59:04 - 00:05:13:20
Speaker 4
I'm going to be boring and say something that was a little bit old, but I think we haven't really outlined the significance of it. And it was the astronomer event and everything that followed after that, that whole like debacle. But then all of the memes that developed, I feel like that was wildly significant to how the world operates at the moment.
00:05:13:20 - 00:05:15:14
Speaker 4
So calling out that one.
00:05:15:16 - 00:05:31:02
Speaker 1
Fantastic. I'm gonna ask the audience for a bit of a fun question as well. And that is, how long can you focus and im watching you all, before you check your phone. So I think we'll put some Slido questions up there.
00:05:31:04 - 00:05:35:04
Speaker 3
Thinking music.
00:05:35:06 - 00:06:00:23
Speaker 1
All right. We might. Oh, there we go. Oh, everyone so fast online is answering these questions here. 5 to 10. 5 to 15 minutes is winning. Oh yeah. That's longer than me. So that's good. All right, well, whilst the audience are answering that question, I might kick off. Thanks, more around audience behavior and and algorithms. Bridget I might start with you.
00:06:01:00 - 00:06:22:20
Speaker 1
Algorithms, like I said, algorithm change at lightning speed. And as a leader who's scaling a digital business, how do you balance chasing the short term versus the long term brand love. Yeah. Well, a few things. Anything that needs to work in the long term should also work in the short term. So we work with lots of major big brands.
00:06:22:22 - 00:06:40:16
Speaker 1
And our view is there's no point trying to build something that will help them in three years if it's not also going to help drive an immediate outcome. So we think about it is what is the right brand operating system? And how do you build the right elements to allow you to do all of the jobs that you need to do?
00:06:40:16 - 00:07:00:02
Speaker 1
And you come from the point of view of who you are and what you need, rather than being a slave to the algorithm, you decide how you're going to play in that ecosystem. And, and you also are very clear about the metrics that you're trying to drive so that you're not distracted by bits of attention for the sake of it.
00:07:00:08 - 00:07:19:23
Speaker 1
But what is valuable, and therefore focus on what's valuable rather than just what's measurable. Yeah. And I guess from a behavioral science lens. Matt. What what's surprising about the, I guess, the quirks of human attention that you're seeing and that marketers are still underestimating.
00:07:20:00 - 00:07:32:20
Speaker 4
Yeah. As far as what marketers are underestimating, building on Bridget’s point, I think something that people misunderstand is they put too much emphasis on attention. I know that's disruptive considering the nature of this talk.
00:07:34:03 - 00:07:43:04
Speaker 4
But there's a number of facets of attention. So there's goal driven attention and then stimulus driven attention and what we notice is a negotiation between those two parts.
00:07:44:06 - 00:08:05:16
Speaker 4
And the focus for all marketers should be building memory structures to then activate them later on. And that's more about memory than it is about attention. So I think about we say, that attention is cheap, but memory is expensive. So trying to build memory structures and focusing on memory should really be the focus, because that's ultimately what's going to lead to a purchase or to action or behavior in market.
00:08:05:18 - 00:08:23:22
Speaker 4
And it's much harder to build so you can do something wild and ridiculous to get attention, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to build a memory structure or a meaningful memory structure. So, for example, I could get up and ask Mason to give me a piggyback around the room. That would largely get a lot of attention, but it wouldn't build any meaningful memory.
00:08:23:22 - 00:08:38:09
Speaker 4
You might remember that thing, but what's that building? How is that telling you anything about about me. So it's important for Marketers start to recognize you might be getting attention but how are you positioning yourself in market. Yeah. How are you building memory structures and how are you using attention to foster memory.
00:08:38:11 - 00:08:56:17
Speaker 1
And how does that work with I guess when we're looking at responding to what the algorithms are telling us, right. So I think that there's a, there's there's that differentiation between attention and memory. But we're looking at how, you know, LinkedIn and the social media algorithms are working. How do we respond to that and how do we start to stop.
00:08:56:19 - 00:08:59:19
Speaker 1
How do we how to build that memory piece into the algorithms.
00:08:59:21 - 00:09:24:24
Speaker 4
Attention and memory interaction Largely comes down to three things goal relevance. So if something is relevant to a goal, we're always navigating roles that's important. And that can help drive attention. Novelty is something. So if something is novelty, both the human brain prioritizes that inside of algorithms. And then the other one is expected reward. So if you feel like there's an expected reward from the interaction that you're having, this is going to lead to some kind of reward outcome.
00:09:25:04 - 00:09:45:03
Speaker 4
You're naturally kind of drawn to it. If you have those three components, then you're going to drive memory. The thing to recognize that algorithms are trying to do one thing because they're trying to stimulate engagement, but you're trying to navigate the fact that you need to build memory structures to get your brand purchased. But keep in mind that algorithms, AI, and humans all have a through line because they're all about what's, resonates with the brain.
00:09:45:05 - 00:10:00:09
Speaker 4
Artificial brains, very similar to all the research in cognitive psychology is very similar to that stuff in, AI and algorithms are born off the same thing. So acknowledge that, algorithms are trying to do one thing and your brand is trying to do another, and then look for the through line between those.
00:10:00:11 - 00:10:01:02
Speaker 3
Yep.
00:10:01:04 - 00:10:19:23
Speaker 1
And one for all of you. But I might start with you, Georgia, in terms of when we're responding to algorithms and the focus becomes on that, we will start to look and feel the same in terms of how we're optimizing. So, I mean, I guess leaning into what Matt saying here, how do you kind of think about, overcoming that sea of sameness in your role?
00:10:20:00 - 00:10:47:22
Speaker 3
Yeah. Look, it's it's always a challenge. I think, within brand and within social as a total, you want to lean into the trend and you want to play into the trend. But by doing so, there's a way that you can create your own unique moment within that, and within within that AI algorithm. So each brand, each person has their own personality, has their own authenticity, which we should then play into within that trend or within that AI algorithm.
00:10:47:24 - 00:10:54:04
Speaker 3
To, to make sure that we're disrupting within the market. So it's having our unique spin on it.
00:10:54:06 - 00:10:55:21
Speaker 1
What's your thoughts on that? Mason.
00:10:55:23 - 00:11:18:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I completely agree. It's, certainly from pedestrians perspective. It's really important for us when we're engaging with audiences across all the platforms and all the trends, etc., how do we think about our brand and our interaction in every single one of those? And it's, you know, the tone, the look, the color, the feel, the platform that we're on.
00:11:18:11 - 00:11:39:05
Speaker 2
And so we don't take just a really homogenous approach of, okay, well, this is the trend that we're trying to tap into. It's when are we who are we specifically trying to target or reach or engage? And then also on what platform? Because, yeah, you can chase the chase the trend. And from a consumer point of view, it might be really great content.
00:11:39:05 - 00:11:57:22
Speaker 2
But, Matt, to your point around having no emotional connection or creating memory. And so every single time we're engaging with our audience, we're trying to figure out what's the unique pedestrian thing, and are we creating an emotional connection with not just our brand, but also our editorial talent? Because that's ultimately what people are really engaging with? Yeah.
00:11:57:24 - 00:12:01:23
Speaker 1
And so have you got any examples of what actually works and what doesn't?
00:12:02:00 - 00:12:36:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. We've done a couple of really great campaigns for brands. But from an editorial perspective, I think having a really clear, brand position, and Heroing the editorial, editorial staff, when we, are executing through you know, we can do in terms of trying to create engagement and create content that resonates. There's a whole bunch of tips and tricks, you know, from an editorial perspective, or even from a brand perspective that you can do with jump cuts and editing faster to kind of create that next leap into that next piece of content.
00:12:36:13 - 00:12:56:21
Speaker 2
But again, for us, you know, the way we think about it is going, okay, well, if this content is going to be sitting on YouTube, we know mid form content certainly for the pedestrian brand is really strong. So that 5 to 8 minute length. So we'll edit stuff down to be specifically for the YouTube platform. You know putting a five minute piece of content on TikTok.
00:12:56:21 - 00:13:24:11
Speaker 2
It's just like a big fat no, it will never, ever work. And so that's the kind of thing that we look at. We also go, okay, if we're doing a press junket, we'll run those on YouTube again. They're about 5 to 8 minutes long. You have a one of our editorial staff front and center. But again, the way in which the brand sits within, so it's not just our logo and the color, but it's also what the team wear, and it's all those subtle messages that are going to help drive that connection.
00:13:24:13 - 00:13:25:11
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:13:25:13 - 00:13:44:09
Speaker 1
And I guess, I mean, that's the digital world. And I think Georgia from an FMcG perspective, we're literally buying the brand off the shelf in that moment. How do you translate that experience, into kind of, you know, in-store decision making into the digital environment and respond to that?
00:13:44:11 - 00:14:05:01
Speaker 3
Yeah, definatly I think, even leaning on Mason's point before around, just sort of a cut through and the length of media and the length of attention that humans have from a span point of view. We need to make sure that we're sharp, concise, really to the point and impactful with how we perceive ourselves digitally, and through the line as well.
00:14:05:01 - 00:14:27:09
Speaker 3
So we might start with, you know, a billboard and make our way to on shelf, making sure the messaging is consistent. So then when they actually going to store, they seeing the brand, they already know what their, the perception of the brand is and what they're looking to. I guess the, the expectations that they'll have. So it's a quick decision for them to be able to make, in that moment on shelf when they're, when they're purchasing.
00:14:27:09 - 00:14:48:21
Speaker 3
So, yeah, I think there's, it's a real through the line funnel approach from a digital piece like above the line. So like through those billboard awareness areas, but as well below the line in store, making sure you're really showing up in places where people shop, and creating like the perception of why they need to buy your product.
00:14:48:23 - 00:15:00:17
Speaker 3
How they'll use it. Make it as easy as possible for consumers, to, to make those quick decisions and that, that is impacted by what they see on, on social and on those digital platforms.
00:15:00:19 - 00:15:22:14
Speaker 1
All the different decision points, that they go through before purchasing a certain brand. And I guess that's a really interesting point, because from a, from an attention point of view that you were talking about, Matt. And what you were talking about. Bridget. You know, there's a difference between I mean, how do you spot the difference between that, that shallow attention, versus that one that actually drives that kind of behavior?
00:15:22:16 - 00:15:50:03
Speaker 1
And I might and I might, point this question to you, Bridget. So, I mean, how do you spot that difference between attention that's shallow versus attention that actually drives loyalty and brand advocacy? Yeah, it's a really interesting question, actually. The points the whole panel of made a really interesting. Like if we think about our own behavior, being guilty of it recently of, you know, doomscrolling for an hour and you can't actually remember anything that you've seen.
00:15:50:05 - 00:16:27:03
Speaker 1
And whatever your view of American politics, you can't deny that a lot of the US election results were driven by really long form podcasts. And so, that, that brought new audiences to new ideas that hadn't been brought to them before. So I think you need to think about it in a macro sense of where where are people open to bigger, longer form ideas or more open to be persuaded, persuaded, and their brains are more likely to start to form memory?
00:16:27:05 - 00:16:51:20
Speaker 1
So you need to think about that. And then I would, you know, reiterate Matt's point of if you're in that hyper attention set that's where you do really need to lean into your existing brand memory structures because, we all know we remember so little bit if the product that you're presenting is relevant to a goal that you're after, you're more likely to, you know, have that formed by tapping into those existing structures
00:16:51:22 - 00:17:12:03
Speaker 1
And so I guess, in those instances, that kind of creativity and that storytelling becomes a real, important aspect of it. So what role do you think, Matt, does creativity and storytelling play in a world? We've got so much data and algorithms, and they're driving our our behaviors and our actions as marketers.
00:17:12:05 - 00:17:33:21
Speaker 4
Massive role. So, misunderstanding is creativity is just wackiness and wildness and being cool and interesting. The truth of creativity is that it is to recognize a truth that we that's again looking, thinking the fact that people have goals and the things they're trying to accomplish. You should be trying to represent something in the world. You should have some empathy for the human condition, some kind of recognition of what's going on out in culture.
00:17:34:01 - 00:17:55:23
Speaker 4
And creative storytelling is really solving a highly complex problem. So you have a brand meaning and a strategy that you're trying to get across in market. You have to recognize that this person is in this. This is a really, really complex brain to navigate, navigating the world and bouncing between all kinds of platforms. And there is this huge macro landscape going on as well, plus all of your competing, competitors in market.
00:17:55:23 - 00:18:16:10
Speaker 4
And the category creativity and storytelling is to find the really, really nuanced thread through all of that that allows you to communicate your brand, actually get noticed, and build a memory structure. And that's kind of where the importance comes. You have it's difficult. It's not easy to do that. Very few brands and very few instances of advertising or marketing actually get it right.
00:18:16:10 - 00:18:17:18
Speaker 3
So yeah.
00:18:17:20 - 00:18:25:18
Speaker 1
I'm actually one for you, Mason. I mean, on that line. Are there any campaigns or tactics that you've seen recently that have kind of broken through that noise?
00:18:25:20 - 00:18:51:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, definitely. Just on that point, though, we, not just creativity, and kind of that, moment in kind of cultural zeitgeist from a, our perspective, we also look at curation, because as a publisher, we don't often either create the moment or can tap into the moment and corral all the really greatest pieces of content and deliver that to our audience.
00:18:51:07 - 00:19:12:14
Speaker 2
So we often think about it from a, a curation perspective as well. In terms of a campaign or campaign that's worked really well. There's actually like a couple that that spring to mind. One most recently. I'm not sure if anyone in the room has seen it, but, Samsung, which is one of our bigger partners, was really interested.
00:19:12:14 - 00:19:42:03
Speaker 2
They've got an internal KPI around engagement. And new marketing manager came on board and he's like, I didn't even know this was a KPI. And we've got this, campaign or we need to run a campaign for their flip and fold phones. So premium high end product. And we got the brief and we were trying to tackle it to kind of go, okay, well how do you create content and how do you create that that moment of receptivity for that particular brand, tapping into a, you know, a, a campaign or an activation.
00:19:42:05 - 00:20:04:11
Speaker 2
And the other KPI was they wanted to run a hashtag something or rather, because, again, kicking it away, old school AI and algorithms these days now don't necessarily work on hashtags. And so we were like, great, we'll run a campaign for you that actually this part doesn't really mean much, but how do we kind of tap into to, tap into this really great idea for you?
00:20:04:13 - 00:20:25:20
Speaker 2
And so we were brainstorming and as we were going through it, it was the time where it was make the comment section look like or the girls group chat or and it was trending on TikTok. So we created the entire campaign around make it look like. And so it was make it look like the girls chat or make it look like the footy chat, or make it look like Facebook Marketplace chat.
00:20:25:22 - 00:20:49:05
Speaker 2
And so we led with, a really engaging piece of content driven by our editorial team and then encouraged, our audiences to comment on that with fold the comments. So to get the hashtag. Yeah, for the client and we had over 10,000 comments on the content that we created, 3000 of those had fold the comments. And that was just to go into a, a competition to win a phone.
00:20:49:07 - 00:21:14:09
Speaker 2
But it wasn't necessarily about that. What we saw in the brand metrics that we ran off the back there was a, a high brand recall that it was Samsung. It really tapped into that, that kind of zeitgeist at that point in time. And the results were, phenomenal. We've had something like a 15 point in increase in Samsung unaided brand recall, the flip phone, hit all of its flip and fold, hit all of its KPIs.
00:21:14:11 - 00:21:36:06
Speaker 2
And the, the client was just really excited about it. The other element, though, when we were trying to get this campaign over the line, was also to understand the the cultural nuances. So I would say, being a Korean company, doesn't have or didn't have Facebook Marketplace, so when we where pitching the concept going, oh, you know, all the conversations and all the is it still available?
00:21:36:06 - 00:21:53:06
Speaker 2
Or can my sister pick this up or can you hold it because I'm a FIFO worker? All of these were flowing through and we were having heaps of fun, with this campaign. But the client was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And so we had to take them on the journey of going, okay, so this is what we're talking about.
00:21:53:06 - 00:22:18:00
Speaker 2
This is where and this is why it's going to work. And so I think have really understanding not just the, the trend and the social trend that's happening, but there are so many social trends that are happening in each market, in each audience group. And as opposed to just taking a really homogenous approach to, you know, a xenial kind of audience, a Gen Z or a millennial or a this, it's who are we going after?
00:22:18:06 - 00:22:35:02
Speaker 2
And what's the thing that's working for that audience? And where can you tap into it authentically? Because we see also there's heaps of examples of brands not doing it well as well. And I think, I think when it works, it works really well. When it doesn't, you can spend a lot of money and that can be wasted.
00:22:35:02 - 00:22:42:15
Speaker 2
And brands are just disingenuous to themselves. And I'm saying don't worry about hitting the KPIs if it's not going to work for your brand.
00:22:42:17 - 00:22:43:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. Just authentic.
00:22:43:19 - 00:22:44:12
Speaker 2
Be brave.
00:22:44:12 - 00:22:45:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, definatly
00:22:45:08 - 00:22:46:08
Speaker 2
Say no.
00:22:46:10 - 00:22:55:21
Speaker 1
Any other I mean from for the rest of the panel of examples of campaigns or tactics that you've seen that potentially you want to unpick today.
00:22:55:23 - 00:22:58:02
Speaker 3
I think.
00:22:58:04 - 00:23:14:10
Speaker 4
Sorry to jump in. There's something that everyone kind of has to acknowledge, like we're talking about attention and we're talking about social media and all those types of things. At one point in time, it was brands. It was few communicating to many through mass media, whereas now it's many to many. And the the landscape has completely changed.
00:23:14:12 - 00:23:36:13
Speaker 4
Businesses and brands are going to have to acknowledge that you can no longer hold and orchestrate your entire narrative anymore. You have to allow it to be co-created by the audience. So anyone who is passing things over any brand who was going, here's half the idea, and the rest of the half is going to be, developed by everyone else out there, by influencers, by creators, by just the general public or, publishers, you know, writing about it is doing it correctly.
00:23:36:13 - 00:24:01:07
Speaker 4
And there are brands like, Stanley Cup that have developed this kind of mentality of we do something, but it gets taken over by the general public and then even Crocs. And then I mentioned the whole astronomer thing, even though that wasn't, planned, any brand would have killed for that level of interactivity. And, you know, maybe it didn't work great for them as a business, but there's elements of that you could learn from the that show that, you know, you have what you're doing, but how much are you allowing everybody else to get involved in this?
00:24:01:07 - 00:24:28:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. And how do you find that balance between the two, like the brand narrative that you want to tell as a brand versus kind of responding to your customers? Bridget your nodding
I think we've we work we work in really highly regulated industries and superannuation is one of them. Host plus is a client of ours. And what we're seeing at the moment is there's so much financial social influencers and there's a lot of influence to tell people to move into self-managed super funds.
00:24:29:00 - 00:24:57:14
Speaker 1
And the truth is, unless you're highly numerate, that's statistically not likely to give you a good outcome. So it's also finding the balance of where you open up the conversation, and then also where you find the balance to actually, express the authority that you have that, that the influencers don't. Yeah, very, very hard balancing act. But it's the right thing to do for your audience.
00:24:57:16 - 00:25:17:12
Speaker 1
And so that's something we're really grappling with with one of our clients that of joked that even he went down the rabbit hole and by the end he was thinking about starting his own super fund. But it's it is a very tricky balance. And it's then working out well, do you tap into some influencer audience that can give the right things, but you can't control them?
00:25:17:16 - 00:25:21:06
Speaker 1
So it's it's you have to be very thoughtful about it. It can't be disposable.
00:25:21:11 - 00:25:45:18
Speaker 2
I think that goes back to the brand credibility thing. Yeah. It's a lot of a lot of brands and we're guilty of it as well. Kind of go, oh, I'm going to use an influencer or someone else that has the social currency. But in reality, a lot of the brands have that credibility that they don't leverage enough. And go we can create and we can turn you into, you know, that celebrity or that hero that you want to be.
00:25:45:20 - 00:26:05:18
Speaker 2
And I don't know if it's that Australian kind of self deprecating kind of approach that we have, but it's like step into it. Same with our editorial team. It's like, oh, you know, we work with this amazing celebrity here and we do this thing here. And it's like you alone have, you know, 60,000 people following you because they love your content.
00:26:05:18 - 00:26:16:07
Speaker 2
You are an influencer and they’re like no, I'm not surely And you're like, you are like, people want to read your stuff, or want to engage with the stuff that you create. So be proud of what you do.
00:26:16:07 - 00:26:18:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. Don't be shy of the credibility that you have. Yeah.
00:26:18:19 - 00:26:44:03
Speaker 3
I think influencers are a great way of gaining visibility and, expressing what you want to express. But in the end, the creativity has to come from the brand itself. The storytelling has to be unforgettable. Unforgettable from the brand. Influencers are a great way of expressing it or driving that reach or driving that awareness. But in the end, it's it's it's through the brand that that drives that key messaging forward.
00:26:44:03 - 00:26:58:11
Speaker 3
So I think, yeah, data is a great way of of getting that exposure. But you need as a brand, you need to have control of what's being said. And I think that's where that human element really comes into play. When you're balancing between data and humanization.
00:26:58:13 - 00:27:02:00
Speaker 2
Because how do you make the product or the brand the hero rather than the influencer?
00:27:02:03 - 00:27:04:16
Speaker 3
Exactly. Yeah.
00:27:04:18 - 00:27:25:13
Speaker 1
And one of the things that I, I mean, as a, as a marketer often grapple with is how do you balance the quantity of, I guess, content that is now needed in this algorithm economy? And Matt, I guess one question for you is what is that role of quality over quantity? In an in an, in an attention economy that basically we're rewarding based on the algorithms and the feeds.
00:27:25:17 - 00:27:26:13
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:27:26:15 - 00:27:44:16
Speaker 4
There’s a Quote I like which is, a wealth of information creates a poverty of attention. And so acknowledging at the moment that we are wading through just a ridiculous amount of stuff and you have to and people like Bridget were saying, you can't really consolidate any of the memories that you're going through, like people aren’t pausing and they're just kind of jumping through.
00:27:44:18 - 00:27:59:00
Speaker 4
But the reality, I would say is that people want to pay attention to things they want to pay attention to, and they don't want to pay attention to things they don't want to pay attention to. That's relatively straightforward, is that but if you're putting out, say, yeah, putting out stuff that's crap and that's no good, no one's going to really want to look at it.
00:27:59:00 - 00:28:10:13
Speaker 4
And if you keep putting that stuff out there, you're going to start to create avoidance to everything that you're doing. So it's being more considered and not just going, let's do spots and dots and just keep throwing all this stuff out there if you're going to train people to avoid you as much as possible.
00:28:10:13 - 00:28:10:22
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:28:11:03 - 00:28:33:06
Speaker 4
And the only way that you lead to memory is depth of processing. That's, really important. And then spaced exposure. But you do need to regularly expose people to your brand to build that memory structure. But you need to make sure that every opportunity that you do with it has depth of processing. And again, that comes down to the complexities of how do you how do you build memory, how do you create something that's, you know, really creatively stimulating or interesting so that it allows people to have depth of processing?
00:28:33:08 - 00:28:49:19
Speaker 4
And I'm talking about, you know, podcasts and long form content. That's one of those things that is a really good example. People are really focused on what's happening when the when they're doing that. But, you know, the same as anything, you can use social proof or you can use lots of things to make something feel like it's worth having the depth of processing.
00:28:49:24 - 00:29:06:00
Speaker 4
If a lot of people are talking about something or it's coming from all these different sources, all of a sudden your brain goes, hang on a second, I probably pay attention to this, and then you'll go and you'll actually reach out and start engaging with this content yourself, or you'll reach out and start looking for it yourself. And that encourages depth of processing.
00:29:06:00 - 00:29:13:21
Speaker 4
So, everyone should be very careful about how much they're putting out there because that's too much. But, you do have to put stuff out there at the end of the day.
00:29:13:21 - 00:29:32:07
Speaker 1
So I think someone mentioned it before, because I think it's that connection to who is the audience that you're trying to reach, right? Like what is going to be most relevant to that audience, and how do you create content that helps you address that? And I think sometimes, and there's so much shift in change in terms of the generations, you know, Gen Alpha is coming.
00:29:32:09 - 00:29:50:05
Speaker 1
I have two of them at home. And they pretty much they've they've grown up with technology and digital. So I guess as we're kind of navigating the different, generations as well, how do brands prepare for that? And maybe Bridget this one would be for you as well. Well, yeah, I think I'm sure your Gen Alpha's at home.
00:29:50:05 - 00:30:18:06
Speaker 1
I've never seen a television commercial know that. And, you know, I think for us, the way we think about that is everything's always been on demand, and their expectations of any brand or business is going to be that of the innovators in other categories. So you will expect that your supermarket will be as on demand as an Uber, you know, so you just need to think about how you structure everything that you do.
00:30:18:08 - 00:30:36:16
Speaker 1
To meet a real lack of patience for, having to wait for things so the experience will become really important. And how do brands respond to that experience? And I guess we're we've talked about data in kind of insight. How how do we keep up with that. Because it's changing so, so frequently. Any thoughts on on that?
00:30:36:22 - 00:30:55:00
Speaker 3
I think there's a lot of testament, to be honest. I think, you can try something one time with a campaign or you boost to a particular post, and you read the data and you understand the learnings and, I guess a key learning that I found throughout my career is that you can't you can't target everyone.
00:30:55:05 - 00:31:17:02
Speaker 3
You've got to be really direct with your audience. You've got to understand what they want their needs and make sure that they're on the platforms that, but like you're marketing to and, and they're participating in. So then you can get the real impact of the key messaging that you're sending out. So, it's yeah, it's been really choicefull with what you decide to, to put forward into the market.
00:31:18:01 - 00:31:42:13
Speaker 4
That test and learn thing is really good as well. And the experimentation is, is really important. I think, you can't assume everything is going to work anymore and you can't assume everything's going to cut through like random stuff happens in the world that completely levels everything. All of a sudden, every day. Now there's this emerging science. It's been around for a little while now called complexity science, which just acknowledges that the world does not operate in any of the formats and the straight lines that we used to think that it does.
00:31:42:19 - 00:32:08:00
Speaker 4
It's getting to the point of almost, completely unpredictable. And so as a brand, you don't know it, you might put it, you might be planning this campaign and orchestrating something for ages and thinking that's going to go really well. And then a world event happens and completely throws it off. So rethinking the way that you put things out in the world and doing the test and learn and thinking, let's try a little bit over here and a little bit over here and kind of having lots of lots of, bets out there at any given moment to see which one's going to take.
00:32:08:02 - 00:32:22:20
Speaker 4
It's not ideal, and the CFO is not going to enjoy that, and it's going to be harder to distribute things. But I mean, the reality is you have a job to do, which is to get in front of your audience and to make it make an impact. That is the only path. As much as people might not like it, it's it's how the world operates.
00:32:23:01 - 00:32:46:06
Speaker 3
Yeah. And one quite pivotal thing that, Vegemite did about four years ago was, we got Vegemite on TikTok. It's a 102 year old brand. Who would have thought Vegemite would be on Tik Tok? But we launched with mighty is our mascot, and he's a Vegemite jar with arms and legs, and he is disrupting the market on Tik Tok.
00:32:46:06 - 00:33:02:18
Speaker 3
And relating to that generation that you wouldn't think maybe a 103 year old brand can relate to. So, to Matts point as well. It's just it's testing in a new market. It might flop, it might do well, but you take those learnings and then you move forward. Yeah. And I think I.
00:33:02:18 - 00:33:24:04
Speaker 2
Think there's also a level of gut feel to it. as well, where you can rely almost too heavily on the data. And we, I'm grappling with this right now. So obviously with all of the AI, you know, AI, over views and the changes in kind of Google search algorithms. One of the things that we were looking at going, oh, yeah, call out, you know, our search referral looks like this.
00:33:24:04 - 00:33:47:12
Speaker 2
And it's following a really similar, similar trend because we obviously have cyclical content when we follow entertainment news and maths comes off, we saw a downward shift, etc.. And we were looking at the trends and we're like, yeah, yeah, that's cool. Like search referrals is going down, social referrals is going back up. This is what happened 12 months ago and I'm I uplift back.
00:33:47:14 - 00:34:13:11
Speaker 2
I might take it out of my pocket. We saw this trend and kind of went, yep, that's great. We know what's causing that. Yeah. And completely missed the mark. And now we're double timing because there was an algorithm change from Google's perspective that we dismissed. So even though where the four of us are sitting up here saying, you know, we know a little bit about this, we still make mistakes every single day.
00:34:13:11 - 00:34:23:10
Speaker 2
And so you have to kind of go, I know the data says this, but my spidey senses are going off like something doesn't feel right. And then keep digging until you find out what it is.
00:34:23:10 - 00:34:39:18
Speaker 1
And because it's changing constantly, just so. So you need to be able to know what's shifting and what's changing to be able to respond to that. From a practical perspective, I know we talked a bit about test and learn and trying new things. How do we create space in a world where our teams are already doing so much?
00:34:39:20 - 00:34:51:07
Speaker 1
Any advice for for the audience today around how to create that space to enable some more tests and learn to be able to respond to the changes that we're seeing in this environment.
00:34:51:09 - 00:35:21:19
Speaker 2
We just push them harder. Yeah, yeah. So just on that data point, and I think, Matt, you're mentioning one of the things that we look at with the sheer volume of content that we put in market. Yeah, we are are looking at, well, using AI and generative AI not to produce content because, our it's funny because our audience, even though they love it and use it when something. they think something is written by AI, there is this almost immediate, like real hard pushback on it.
00:35:21:19 - 00:35:42:02
Speaker 2
And I was actually saying to the guys at the back of the room in our style guide, we have the double M, the M dash, and it's been in our style guide for the last 15 odd years. But now, apparently that's a telltale sign of ChatGPT. And so people will be reading our editorially written articles and then commenting, going, oh, I can't.
00:35:42:02 - 00:36:13:03
Speaker 2
I was really enjoying this, but I can't believe it's been written by chat. You're like, no, it hasn't. And it's like, do we fight the fight? Or do we just roll over on this one and just change our style guide? Probably the latter but we now have a look at what's the type of content, that we are that hasn't been resonating or hasn't been working, delivering those KPIs that we set right at the beginning of the, to go, okay, well, this is what success looks like and try really hard to stop ourselves from doing more of that so we can spend more time doing, you know, the 70, 2010 kind of what works,
00:36:13:05 - 00:36:20:07
Speaker 2
the stuff, the 20% that we think is doing well and then the 10%, which is just let's throw it out there and say how we go.
00:36:20:08 - 00:36:35:21
Speaker 4
Even that how much of what you're doing is built on false assumptions, like how much of what you're doing day to day are you doing because it's what you've always done and it's just a systematize thing in the business, there's a lot of things that brands and businesses probably need to completely stop doing or start figuring out how do we move away from that as fast as possible.
00:36:35:23 - 00:36:51:07
Speaker 4
Like if you've got people who cannot jump on the new waves of things that are coming, do you think you're going to succeed? Like, do you think you're going to do well if you're not jumping on the stuff that's starting to work and starting to emerge? If you're doubling down on on old hat and old tricks? I don't know.
00:36:51:08 - 00:36:53:14
Speaker 4
It's not a great position to be in.
00:36:53:16 - 00:37:14:09
Speaker 3
I think, AI’s the power of AI allows us to be more efficient, which I think can be good and bad. I was saying I was saying to the guys at the back as well, like I have, I feel like I'm starting to become more reliant on AI or copilot just to cross-check things or, you know, you put a sentence in and you just say, oh, like, is that all right?
00:37:14:09 - 00:37:16:16
Speaker 3
Like does it look, all right, you sound better.
00:37:16:16 - 00:37:17:06
Speaker 2
It's clunky.
00:37:17:06 - 00:37:44:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So you hope that AI can be used as a power tool to free up that space? If it's allowing you to have more efficiency from email writing to, social copy, use it to your power and control. You control the AI don't let it control you. To then free up that that time to to test new platforms or to, I don't know, even put a bit of work aside and just do something else for half an hour.
00:37:44:06 - 00:37:55:22
Speaker 3
Just block out your diary and and give it a go, because you don't know until you try. And learning is that is the best, best thing you can do. So yeah. We.
00:37:56:03 - 00:38:21:21
Speaker 1
We the world talks a lot about AI, but probably not enough about automation. And a lot of what we focus on is the things that particularly brand teams do repeatedly. How can you create frameworks to automate them so that smart humans get time back? And we've been quite successful in doing that, particularly things like looking at a brand ecosystem and all of the hundreds of assets you need to produce.
00:38:21:23 - 00:38:50:00
Speaker 1
How do you improve the craft and automate them? So a brand team for example, ceases to be the brand police and has head space to do other things. And then even within our business, the the best thing that we are doing is looking at process maps and going, well, how can we collapse some of these processes? So using tools like Zapier, for example, that helps automate processes that actually legitimately those like we keep saying, hate something change
00:38:50:00 - 00:39:01:08
Speaker 1
Something like there's a task you hate doing. There is probably a smarter process to speed that up. So delegating those commodity tasks so that new smart brains can do bigger and better things.
00:39:01:10 - 00:39:24:20
Speaker 4
Might slightly challenge that as well. Anyone who didn't hear the importance of automating that, Brigid just said you missed an opportunity there because you 100% should be doing that. That's something that everyone should be conscious of, is what are you handing over? Like where are you potentially missing the most important bit is this concept called Chesterton's fence, which is, this fable of someone walking through a field and sees this dilapidated fence and goes, well, I'll get rid of that.
00:39:24:23 - 00:39:38:06
Speaker 4
And then all of a sudden, all the cows get out and don't remove something until you understand the importance of why it's there in the first place. And too often, people can be quick to just throw something out and not realize that this that the secret or the most important part was that thing that you got rid of there.
00:39:38:06 - 00:39:48:13
Speaker 4
So yeah, you'd be a fool to not listen to Bridget and start looking at your workflows and figuring how to automate things, but at the same time be very, very stringent about what's the really important stuff, what's the magic that you can't lose.
00:39:48:15 - 00:39:50:16
Speaker 1
But it just don't change everything at once.
00:39:50:18 - 00:39:52:23
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:39:53:00 - 00:40:11:12
Speaker 1
Fantastic. And on the topic of AI, i mean, AI is supposed to optimize everything, that's the pitch. But can it really optimize human attention? Or does it just optimize the noise that's surounds it? And so I guess this is one for all of you. So whoever wants to jump in first and take that one on.
00:40:11:14 - 00:40:42:00
Speaker 3
I think AI has a real role of, driving attention, but for a very short period of time, it does create noise, but very short period. I think the human element, but paired with AI drives that connection and that meaning piece AI can't be creative or drive the creativity that, links to a brand or links to a particular person that comes from you, and that comes from the brand and the core itself.
00:40:42:02 - 00:40:48:10
Speaker 3
It can't storytell, That has to be fed by you, by the human. So, yeah, you can't have one and not the other. Yeah.
00:40:48:10 - 00:41:10:11
Speaker 4
Yeah. I think, This question is kind of like, how is AI going to help us with our attention at this point because it's so unknown? You can kind of make any prediction you want, and you'll sound clever when you say it. And then it whenever it Eventuates no one will remember that you didn't get it right. So I think that there's AI is there to potentially help us out with things like make things easier.
00:41:10:13 - 00:41:28:02
Speaker 4
There's this cognitive philosopher who talks about the extended mind hypothesis, which is humans have a tendency to develop tools that allow them to outsource things. So pad a pen allows you to outsource having to remember that thing later, because you can pick up the pad in the pen. A watch helps you outsource tracking time a calender what helps you outsource, tracking seasons.
00:41:28:08 - 00:41:45:10
Speaker 4
There's all these things that we start to do to get rid of so that we can focus on other stuff. There's a real possibility that AI could become the arbiter of everyone's experience, in that it becomes to know you really well and the things that you're after. And instead of you having to trawl through and find stuff and go through all of this, it curates your whole experience and puts it in front of you.
00:41:45:12 - 00:41:58:22
Speaker 4
Yeah, a little bit of a scary and dystopian kind of view, but that's that could be something like that. People could go, I would see value in not having to go and scroll through Netflix, but sitting down and it just says, you probably gonna like this tonight. And then you just kind of put it on. It's almost like going right back to TV.
00:41:58:24 - 00:42:14:04
Speaker 4
But what if that were the case in all content that we consume, if we get to a point where completely taxed of our capacity to pay attention to all of this, or to just find our way through it, we may start getting assistance and tools that start pushing us towards that, which is sort of the algorithm, but dialed up to a ridiculous level.
00:42:14:06 - 00:42:18:22
Speaker 4
What that means are the implications. But, you know, something to.
00:42:18:24 - 00:42:19:13
Speaker 1
Ponder on.
00:42:19:13 - 00:42:20:23
Speaker 4
On there.
00:42:21:00 - 00:42:43:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's the fear of shouting into the echo chamber. And certainly again, being a publisher, our editorial team believe it's their responsibility to surface other opinions or different ways of thinking. This is more obviously from our, from a news perspective. And so that's something that we take, you know, really seriously, back in the office around.
00:42:43:03 - 00:43:09:22
Speaker 2
Yes. AI and algorithmic kind of work, and data sets is, is very good at optimizing and telling us post trends, but it's very it doesn't work very well from a forward projection and being like, right at that very tipping point. Yeah. And so that something that we're thinking around is going, how do we continue to be at that really point bit and then use it for all of the benefits of just we, we call it the hygiene factor.
00:43:09:22 - 00:43:16:04
Speaker 2
So how do you optimize the hygiene factors so you can spend more time on the on the fun smart stuff right.
00:43:16:06 - 00:43:32:18
Speaker 1
Okay. I have two minutes to go. So I'm going to ask one last question before I hand over to the audience. Imagine it's 2030. And what will you be laughing at? What will we be laughing at ourselves for doing in 2025 to win attention?
00:43:32:20 - 00:43:34:05
Speaker 3
Or chasing every meme
00:43:34:05 - 00:43:36:02
Speaker 1
chasing every meme
00:43:36:04 - 00:43:57:09
Speaker 3
I think just trying to jump on to everything, to, to create impact and to create attention when in the end, I think we need to be choicefull We need to ensure that what we're putting out there has meaning, is going to be good for the person, for the brand, instead of, yeah, just jumping on a meme to jump on a meme.
00:43:57:09 - 00:44:01:17
Speaker 3
Yeah. I in a.
00:44:01:17 - 00:44:35:07
Speaker 1
Way, philosophically hope we as humans and as society become a bit more aware of how much our attention is monopolized, and what is good for human flourishing versus what is good for short term attention, and that we get some balance back, because you can be very dystopian about some of these things, but you can also hope that maybe we decide that while there are roles that data and algorithms actually not being monopolized is a great way for humans to connect and learn and.
00:44:35:09 - 00:44:39:19
Speaker 3
Yes, thrive. Yeah.
00:44:39:21 - 00:45:02:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think, God, I look back at stuff that I did three years, five years ago and all of it's cringe. So I think in 2030, it's scarily enough, sounds like it's so far away, so far away, but it's actually not. Yeah, I still think beyond 2000, the programs like Cutting Edge. But I think you look back at in, in a couple of years, we'll just go.
00:45:03:00 - 00:45:03:18
Speaker 2
What were we thinking?
00:45:03:18 - 00:45:05:06
Speaker 1
What were we thinking on everything.
00:45:05:06 - 00:45:24:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. But yeah, a more serious answer is I agree. It's that constantly chasing that thing that happened at that point in time, which may have only been around for five minutes, and it moved on so quickly that you didn't even make a blip. And so it's going to be around making sure that we, yeah, mindfully make those selections as to what we what we're doing.
00:45:24:12 - 00:45:25:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. And not.
00:45:25:22 - 00:45:27:19
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:45:27:21 - 00:45:28:20
Speaker 4
If I have to say something to.
00:45:28:24 - 00:45:30:08
Speaker 3
Yeah. I don't.
00:45:30:08 - 00:45:31:18
Speaker 1
Have to.
00:45:31:20 - 00:45:50:16
Speaker 4
I, I hope that the content that out there is far less dull is my only thing. I think that there's so much that goes out there that's just devoid of considering human psychology, human interest, what's happening in the world. I think that too often you just see that, that brand is clearly just trying to advertise. That brand is really trying to push a functional benefit.
00:45:50:16 - 00:46:06:07
Speaker 4
And it's like people are just tired of all of this. But there are so many interesting ways. If you have someone's attention, if you've captured someone's attention, you have an obligation to make good of that. And I think and I hope people finally wise up to that and start doing more interesting things.
00:46:06:09 - 00:46:16:22
Speaker 1
Fantastic. Well, we might hand over to the audience and we've got a few roaming mics I think there's a question at the front here. Thanks, Jenni
00:46:17:09 - 00:46:35:10
Speaker 5
Hi, Eric. Two part question. First part. How much of an impact do you think the social media ban for under sixteens will have? And then the other thing is, when you were looking at the future, you didn't really talk about technology much. I know Zuckerberg wants everybody to live in the metaverse, which we seem to be resisting.
00:46:35:10 - 00:46:53:18
Speaker 5
Thank God. But how popular do you think? Like, augmented reality glasses and things like that will become and will that be a disruptor? Or everyone will just be walking up to a stranger and getting their full bio and saying hello using their name?
00:46:53:20 - 00:47:07:22
Speaker 1
There's two parts of your question and one is around the impact of social media bans for under sixteens, and how we think that might influence, our audiences and how they're consuming media in the future. Does anyone want to lean into to that question?
00:47:07:24 - 00:47:09:15
Speaker 3
No.
00:47:09:17 - 00:47:12:03
Speaker 1
So polite our Panel.
00:47:12:05 - 00:47:32:01
Speaker 4
I don't think adults are very good at regulating their emotions, very good at making decisions for themselves. So 16 year olds definitely aren't. And putting everything in their hands is a ridiculous notion that we don't seem to want to admit. So I feel like that ban is good. I understand people like, oh, you know, we're putting impeding on people's freedom and there's some sense of control there.
00:47:32:01 - 00:47:38:18
Speaker 4
But I don't know, there's lots of things that we control that we don't. We don't allow people to have guns. We don’t allow people to have lots of things like it's.
00:47:38:20 - 00:47:55:04
Speaker 1
Do you think it will influence how they consume or interact with social media with, with that ban? I guess that's from a marketer's perspective. How does that influence their, interactions as adults and when they're in the market? With, with social media, does that change? Do we see that impacting it?
00:47:55:06 - 00:48:14:22
Speaker 3
I think there's different touch points that you can, direct, like marketing to that particular age. And it is a sensitive age, you know, sort of those younger generations, or those. Yeah, those younger people. If it isn't through social, which, yeah, you can doom scroll and you can sort of go through a real motion and go through it.
00:48:14:23 - 00:48:34:22
Speaker 3
Yeah, I guess go through that from a social lens. But there's otherwise in terms of, you know, your billboards and you're out at home and, you know, in your supermarkets you can really bring or bring to life that creativity in that meaning through, through those other touch points that might not be so directed, the child or the kid, that allows a brand to have an impact.
00:48:34:24 - 00:48:43:17
Speaker 3
But yeah, to Matt's point, like, I think it's, it's, it's regulations that are coming through and we, we need to manage that.
00:48:43:18 - 00:49:14:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think we could sit here and have that conversation for hours and hours. Right. And even your your question around the technology and how we're engaging with different platforms, such a big conversation to, to unpack, but yeah, I think there's, there's, there's this things that we, we should be thinking about from a brand storytelling perspective around how we connect to our audience, regardless of the platform, by telling a really authentic and unique story any, oh, lots of hands.
00:49:14:20 - 00:49:16:20
Speaker 1
So I thought we had two rhyming marks, I think.
00:49:16:22 - 00:49:34:09
Speaker 5
Thank to hi, I'm Sarge and I work in learning and I guess we have a same same but different issue with attention span. So when we put out learning content out there, trying to get people to engage with it is always challenging. And I mean, we all know we've got four generations of people in the workforce at the moment.
00:49:34:09 - 00:49:49:04
Speaker 5
So from a marketer's perspective, I'm curious to understand what are some of the things that we could do to get people to engage in our learning initiatives that we put out there from that attention span point of view?
00:49:49:06 - 00:49:49:15
Speaker 2
Jesus
00:49:49:15 - 00:49:53:20
Speaker 3
Thank you. Content. That's a hard one. Yeah.
00:49:53:22 - 00:49:54:05
Speaker 2
Free.
00:49:54:05 - 00:49:54:20
Speaker 4
Services is.
00:49:54:20 - 00:49:59:15
Speaker 2
Asking for. Yeah. So yeah. So put all your advertising dollars with pedestrian.
00:49:59:17 - 00:50:01:13
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:50:01:15 - 00:50:22:05
Speaker 2
The but I think we have a similar problem. I would say we go all the way from, you know, a 14 year old all the way up to a 64 year old. And if I was just going standard demographics, I think it's, we think about it is where is that content being consumed and how are they consuming it.
00:50:22:05 - 00:50:47:14
Speaker 2
So we know our audience naturally skews much younger on on TikTok, goes Instagram. Our average age on Apple News is 64. And so were a predominantly, xenial audience but how they consume and where they consuming it. And so we think about again, why are we writing that piece of content or who is that aimed at and deliver it in a more meaningful way.
00:50:47:14 - 00:51:05:17
Speaker 2
So we do short cut downs. If we're thinking about it from a from a younger audience, again, tapping into that kind of social currency, if it's slightly if you're going for an older audience, we will create longer pieces of content that have more kind of thought or opinion, opinion in it. We also include carousels, videos, etc..
00:51:05:19 - 00:51:31:12
Speaker 2
And so I think my recommendation or my kind of, you know, insight would be truly understanding the audience, trying to create content as difficult as it can be, because you have to create it four times over. But there is different ways of cutting it up. So it's not just, it's all out there for you and, and the consumer has to decide it's where, what and then how you want them to consume it, and then trying to tailor it that way.
00:51:31:14 - 00:51:32:19
Speaker 2
But it is it's hard.
00:51:32:21 - 00:51:34:04
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:51:34:06 - 00:51:39:14
Speaker 1
I think we had a few questions. this side Jenni
00:51:39:16 - 00:51:50:02
Speaker 5
Either we're talking about the attention recession, and I was interested to know if you had any tips or habits that you were taking to avoid your own Attention Recession.
00:51:50:02 - 00:52:17:05
Speaker 4
Mindfulness meditation. Mindfulness meditation. Attention is a skill. People will say our attention spans have fallen away. It's not true. Evolution doesn't work that fast. You just the skill of paying attention has fallen away. So there's lots of research into meditation, but training yourself to come back and focus on just one thing over and over again, you will train that muscle, and then eventually that muscle will be strong enough that you can apply that, to your daily life.
00:52:17:05 - 00:52:18:23
Speaker 4
I just came back from a week at a Buddhist retreat.
00:52:18:23 - 00:52:42:22
Speaker 3
So yeah, top of my list I also think, like, prioritization helps with attention. You know, if you've got a task at hand, you know, you need to get it done or it's true that week putting your attention towards that and sort of honing in on that, going into a quiet space, making it an environment that, you know, is suitable for you.
00:52:42:24 - 00:52:54:23
Speaker 3
That's sort of out of all out of social lens, this type of, sort of answer. But, I think that that can really sort of focus the mind, to, to support sort of getting something done.
00:52:55:00 - 00:53:10:00
Speaker 2
A lot of the, a lot of our team have those, I don't know what the name is for them, but the 20 minute clocks that sit on their desk. And so they like time at up, and they just hit go. And that really keeps them super, super focused on that particular task at hand. Because I know I do the same thing.
00:53:10:00 - 00:53:27:21
Speaker 2
You know, I see it, we don't have offices, in in our, in our business. And so I'll have a million people coming over and having a chat with me whilst I'm trying to get, you know, board document out or something along those lines. And it takes me an inordinate amount of time. I got this one email takes three hours because you're having conversations with 100 people.
00:53:28:00 - 00:53:44:09
Speaker 2
So yeah, it's really about being really mindful what your what you're doing at that point in time. And using little tools like that, which I think just keep you super focused. And then putting your phone down when you go to bed because otherwise you never fall asleep. Right?
00:53:44:11 - 00:54:01:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. Look, I'm, I put my phone on airplane mode. I put it away a lot. If I do want to let myself doom scroll, I set a four minute timer. So once that and God, it goes like that. So once that's gone, it's done. And in a similar vein to Matt, I have started to become a massive sauna fan.
00:54:01:08 - 00:54:14:22
Speaker 1
And you cannot have a phone in 100 degree sauna, and you have to sit there with your thoughts and nothing else going on. So yeah, that's a good way to make it work and really great tips there. Do we have any online questions.
00:54:14:23 - 00:54:16:21
Speaker 6
Oh we do anshu
00:54:16:24 - 00:54:18:16
Speaker 1
Yes. Thank you Snitta Yes.
00:54:18:16 - 00:54:32:05
Speaker 6
So one around profit non for profits and tight budgets. What practical strategies or examples have you seen where low cost campaigns still manage to educate or drive impact.
00:54:32:07 - 00:54:56:18
Speaker 3
That's a good question. With brands I mean not every brand has a budget. And so you have to be really strategic with sort of how you go to market and how you represent your brand. And even with no budget, putting out content that's organic, across, you know, Instagram and TikTok that, is relevant to your audience still has a great impact.
00:54:56:20 - 00:55:19:08
Speaker 3
I think it's being visible, being there, ensuring your creative in the way you approach the content that you put out. It has a story to it. So it has meaning still disrupts. I don't think you need to, to have a budget to, to create any impact at all. There's a lot of creative ways that you can tap into all those different types of platforms organically.
00:55:19:10 - 00:55:21:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. So there.
00:55:21:16 - 00:55:23:14
Speaker 4
You go. I think I've jumped in a couple times now.
00:55:23:16 - 00:55:55:21
Speaker 2
I was just going to say, what's really great about not for profits Yeah. As a society, I think we're becoming much more aware of brands that are doing things for good, and will give them much more mental kind of headspace. Prior to this role, I used to work, at a, a really progressive publisher, and the work that we used to do in that space around, creating attention for, for brands that were trying to move in the right direction and do the right thing.
00:55:56:00 - 00:56:20:16
Speaker 2
We found that there was our audience would absolutely engage with that. I also just think we probably just we talk about, you know, TikTok and Instagram as, as, producers or like a or a, a thing where is there actually really a channel and no one goes, oh, it's, you know, TV. I, you know, I work with TV, I do this where I work with magazine.
00:56:20:18 - 00:56:44:21
Speaker 2
It's who's the partner that you're choosing to work with to kind of drive that message. You know, you book into a particular program or you work with channel nine on that. The block, or you work with Insert Publisher here to tap into an Instagram audience or the Instagram kind of platform or TikTok platform. I think it's also the partners that you work with you need to be really mindful of.
00:56:44:23 - 00:57:15:20
Speaker 2
Because back to that question around, 16 year old, you know, 16 year olds or under on, on platforms, it's we all have a responsibility to make sure that we are protecting, the young people. I've got three little boys, and I know the stuff that they are already exposed to is, like, terrifying. The stuff that our business is allowed to put out into, into the ether because we're regulated and we have a reputation.
00:57:15:22 - 00:57:40:15
Speaker 2
We don't do a lot of things, whereas if we're just chasing clicks or engagements, etc., you go for the cheap shot and so social media and like the likes of Instagram, TikTok, Facebook can be really damaging. And so you have to be very careful with what you're putting out there when you're putting out and then who you putting it out there with because you don't want your brand associated with, the undesirable
00:57:40:17 - 00:57:42:10
Speaker 4
Can I add to that quickly?
00:57:42:10 - 00:57:42:21
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:57:42:24 - 00:58:00:08
Speaker 4
Okay. I wouldn't tell you the answer, but I could tell you. Ever want a clue of where to look? Social psychology talks about how information propagates through networks. And so if you don't have a lot of budget, but you understand how networks operate and the different agents that exist in a network, and you want to stay on the types of information that's likely to get passed on or shared or all that kind of stuff.
00:58:00:10 - 00:58:07:18
Speaker 4
That is a large clue. And that's something that, we leverage a lot at the moment. So look there
00:58:07:20 - 00:58:09:20
Speaker 1
We have time for one more.
00:58:09:22 - 00:58:11:11
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:58:11:13 - 00:58:12:16
Speaker 1
I think this one up the.
00:58:12:16 - 00:58:16:17
Speaker 3
Okay. I've got two questions, but I asked the first question, do.
00:58:16:17 - 00:58:17:13
Speaker 1
You think brand.
00:58:17:13 - 00:58:22:05
Speaker 3
Nowadays are addicted to attention metrics like likes and views.
00:58:22:07 - 00:58:26:04
Speaker 1
Rather than making real impact? That's question one.
00:58:26:04 - 00:58:28:14
Speaker 3
Question two is, if the algorithm.
00:58:28:14 - 00:58:34:11
Speaker 1
Is deciding on what is being seen out there, are we really creating content for.
00:58:34:11 - 00:58:37:15
Speaker 3
People or for machines?
00:58:37:17 - 00:59:04:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. Certainly from our perspective, yes. I think we can fall into the trap of chasing vanity metrics. What's really interesting, though, is, the way those platforms will prioritize. So if you've got a, a link post, you know, we see it's got, a, an off site URL to it, it gets deprioritized by meta and the likes.
00:59:04:08 - 00:59:25:15
Speaker 2
That's why you see a lot of publishers now doing, linking in bio, a link in first comment, because it gets promoted to audience’s much broader. And so again, one of the things for us is we go, okay, well that's great. That is that a vanity metric that you're going comments or likes. So how much of that audience has spent reading that piece of content, coming back to the site, etc., engaging with?
00:59:25:17 - 00:59:48:24
Speaker 2
And so that goes right back, I think, to your point, right at the beginning, which is understand what those KPIs look like and what success is, so you can optimize to that. And then are we creating content for algorithms? I think there is a world in which we almost run two different versions of web one, which is optimized to AI and AI learning.
00:59:49:01 - 00:59:59:14
Speaker 2
So your brand will always show up in that space, but then you have a world in which you're actually optimizing and creating content for people. And I know that's something that we're thinking about right now.
00:59:59:16 - 01:00:16:14
Speaker 4
Definitely focused on the wrong metrics at the moment. There's a quote - Show me the incentive, and I'll show you the outcome. If the incentive is on intention and things like that, it might not be focused on making meaningful memory or any kind of made that point. And if meaningful memory doesn't result in sales, then what are you doing or the behavior?
01:00:16:14 - 01:00:28:12
Speaker 4
Every business problem is a behavior change problem. If you don't start with behavior and then work your way back as to what leads to behavior, you're likely just messing about in the completely wrong space. But you'll have some nice reports to show people and some big numbers of.
01:00:28:12 - 01:00:29:22
Speaker 3
Stuff which.
01:00:29:24 - 01:00:31:06
Speaker 4
That might be fun for you.
01:00:31:08 - 01:00:32:07
Speaker 2
Sometimes it's needed.
01:00:32:11 - 01:00:59:12
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, I think it also really depends on the purpose of the content that you're putting out to dictate, like social views or engagement or awareness, because you can I mean, the back end of ads is so complex now in terms of you can be so targeted with the end metric that you try to achieve. So I think each plays a role and I think views feed the algorithm likes feed the algorithm.
01:00:59:12 - 01:01:12:06
Speaker 3
So I think it just depends on what your end result is to then understand what metric you're looking most for in that space.
01:01:12:08 - 01:01:22:03
Speaker 1
Great. I'm so sorry I could continue this conversation the whole day. There’s so much great content from our panelists. So big thank you to Bridget Georgia Mason and
01:01:22:03 - 01:01:45:14
Speaker 1
And a really big thank you to our wonderful audience today here in person and also the ones that are joining us online. I guess I'm taking away that, that while attention feels hard to win, meaningful memories, is really important in terms of how we build trust and connection and impact that lasts beyond the scroll and the screen.
01:01:45:16 - 01:02:02:10
Speaker 1
And I guess from, from our point of view, this is, day two of our Future Skills Fest. And like I said, please check out some of the other events that we have this week. There's also a chance to win one of our future skills courses. So please share your insights from today. On social media.
01:02:02:12 - 01:02:22:03
Speaker 1
And if you want to keep learning, we do have amazing short courses. They're designed to be flexible and relevant. So big thanks again to the industry, panelists that we've got today. And a big thank you to you all, again on behalf of RMIT online for the amazing energy you've brought into the room and online, and have a fantastic rest of your morning,
In a world of endless feeds and ever-shrinking patience, winning audience attention has become the ultimate challenge. Algorithms change overnight, content is consumed at lightning speed, and what worked yesterday might not even register tomorrow.
Welcome to the Great Attention Recession.
This live-streamed recording brings together leading voices in CX, digital marketing, and brand from leaders at Google, Thinkerbell, Bega and Pedestrian Group. The group explores the forces behind collapsing attention spans and the shifting algorithm economy. More importantly, you’ll hear practical strategies for cutting through the noise, holding focus, and connecting in ways that last, without burning out your audience (or yourself).
Hear candid insights, real-world examples, and a little tough love ... because let’s face it, algorithms don’t love you back.
With cyber security incidents costing Australian businesses an estimated $29 billion annually, the demand for skilled professionals has never been greater.
Feeling stuck, burnt out, or worried your role has an expiry date? Join us as we speak to people who have made it out of the career rut.
Join us as we unpack the growing responsibility of those interpreting and communicating in the AI age.
RMIT University acknowledges the people of the Woi wurrung and Boon wurrung language groups of the eastern Kulin Nation on whose unceded lands we conduct the business of the University. RMIT University respectfully acknowledges their Ancestors and Elders, past and present. RMIT also acknowledges the Traditional Custodians and their Ancestors of the lands and waters across Australia where we conduct our business - Artwork 'Sentient' by Hollie Johnson, Gunaikurnai and Monero Ngarigo.
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RMIT University acknowledges the people of the Woi wurrung and Boon wurrung language groups of the eastern Kulin Nation on whose unceded lands we conduct the business of the University. RMIT University respectfully acknowledges their Ancestors and Elders, past and present. RMIT also acknowledges the Traditional Custodians and their Ancestors of the lands and waters across Australia where we conduct our business.
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